Realistic Trickle-Back Mod

[unmerged(23241)]

I want to make a realistic manpower return in the game.

Currently, the value in the Hearts of Iron 2\db\misc file is:

# Trickle-back factor for manpower from losses in battle. (ie, how many are just wounded.)
0.5

How is it possible to alter this for seperate countries?

Realistically, you will see below that countries suffered a different attrition rate in combat. If it is possible to mod this then it would be very interesting.

Can somebody script this?

I have compiled the raw data below.

Apologies about the formatting. I simply pasted it from word.

TRUE MANPOWER LOST IN CONFLICT – HOI2

Based on 1 Manpower = 1000 men. 
Military casualties only.

‘Returned’ means the manpower that is returned to the manpower pool (wounded).

		Dead		Wounded		Total MP lost		Returned 
ALLIES

Australia	23.3		39.8			63.1			63.07%
Belgium	         7.7		14.5			22.2			65.31%
Canada		37.4		53.1			90.5			58.67%
China		2200		1762			3962			39.62%
France		210.6		390			600.6			64.93%
Great Britain   329.2	     348.4		      677.6		      51.41%
(includes colonials)
		
Poland		320		530			850			62.35%
Soviet Union  500	     5000		   12500		    40.00%
United States	405.3	    671.2		  1076.5		   62.35%

AXIS
Austria		380		350.1			730.1			47.95%
Bulgaria	10		21.8			31.8			68.55%
Finland	      82		50			132			37.87%
Germany	    3500	    7250		   10750		  67.44%
Hungary	     140	    89.3		     229.3		    38.94%
Italy		77.4		120			197.4			60.79%
Japan		1219	     295.2		    1514.2		     19.49%
Romania	300		Unavailable

AVERAGE: 	53.04%
The greatest attrition rates through combat are, in order of highest:

1st. Japan
2nd Finland
3rd Hungary
4th China
5th Soviet Union
6th Austria
7th Great Britain
8th Canada
9th Italy
10th Poland & United States
11th Australia
12th France
13th Belgium
14th Germany
15th Bulgaria

Concisely, the modifiers would be:



ALLIES

Australia 0.6307
Belgium 0.6531
Canada 0.5867
China 0.3962
France 0.6493
Great Britain* 0.5141
*includes colonials

Poland 0.6235
Soviet Union 0.4
United States 0.6235

AXIS
Austria 0.4795
Bulgaria 0.6855
Finland 0.3787
Germany 0.6744
Hungary 0.3894
Italy 0.6079
Japan 0.1949


AVERAGE: 0.5304


I dont know if the large decimals would slow the game down or crash it...

 

[unmerged(5110)]

Nice statistics! Can you do me a big favour?

http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Knowledge_Base

Go to the HoI2 wiki and list this article in the Knowledge base, along with your sources.

I would be much obliged to you!



Thank you! Great numbers!

 

[unmerged(23241)]

Nice statistics! Can you do me a big favour?

http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Knowledge_Base

Go to the HoI2 wiki and list this article in the Knowledge base, along with your sources.

I would be much obliged to you!



Thank you! Great numbers!

Yes - it will be sometime today. The Wiki is great - I know it well!

 

[unmerged(23241)]

Go to the HoI2 wiki and list this article in the Knowledge base, along with your sources.

I have a problem - the formatting is full of errors.
Each time I paste the article all the tables and tab spacings are messed up.

 

[unmerged(42223)]

Statistics are great

How about a 'weighted average' and these considerations.

By 'weighted average' I mean for instance Germany, Italy had far more troops a field than the others they are 'averaged' with so their numbers should figure in more prominantly. So in that case .65 would work for them.

However, across the field consider, how many troops 'dissappeared' in Soviet Russia after being over-run early on. Also in Japan it was dis-honorable to leave the battlefield 'alive' unless you were the clear victor. For the USA millions of 'drafted democrates' received 'dis-honorable or unfit for duty discharges' The effect of a mass draft on the heels of a drawn out depression.

Just some ideas, when you seek to particulize each country or average different cultures and times.

 

[X_MasterDave_X]

@Finbar

Sorry, but I think, there are 2 huge errors in this idea.

First.... from where are this informations ?
I think, you found informations about the casualitis in WW2.
These are the counts for all death people and all wounded people per country after the COMPLETE War.

for example 405.300 dead US-Soldiers and additional 671.200 wounded Soldiers after WW2.

But the trickle-Back factor is after one BATTLE, not the COMPLETE War.

So much of the 400 thousend dead US-Soldiers, were in Battles before (the end of the War) only wounded. Some Soldiers wounded 5-10 times. Maybe on the 11. time they died in combat.

So this statistik is not good at all for the trickle-back factor.

As i read, the factor between death and wounded Souldiers is more like 1 to 8, or 1 to 10 in a standard WW2 Battle.

So normaly after one battle, the sides had like e.g. 1000 deaths and 8000 wounded Soldiers, but this also depends on the battle and the nation. So a factor in HoI2 would be better like 85%.

But this brings us to another point. How many of this wounded Soldiers could fight after this battle ? What means wounded ?? Only a small flesh wound in the arm, or a lost finger, or maybe very near to death, with months of healing time if ever.. If the soldier lost a leg....War is over....in every country. If he lost an eye.....in US maybe time to go back to mom....in Germany or Russia maybe back to the front after some weeks.

What i will say is......there is no way to find a realistic factor for this HoI "Trickle-Back". In HoI2 this 50% is only a fun factor nothing else. I am sure you cant find something absolutely near to reality. But If you want to try.....go up to some 75-90%.

But I dont think, thats a good idea, because, the casualities are so low in HoI2.....they should be better made greater, not less. The battles in vanilla HoI2 are so short that normally a unit loose only 2-10% of strength after the unit broke in org. Thats the reason, you see so much 100-98% strength units on the map. Absolutely unrealistic. IRL divisons had more like 50-70% of full strength normally on the field.....the soldiers died quicker, than they could be replaced with new man.

Starfire is a very good mod here, because the fighting duration is higher, and so battles need more time and have more casualities.....much more realistic.

To get better results cut the "Trickle Back Factor" to 0. So you have realistic losses in Battles.....and the game is much harder....and better.

This Factor is a good idea normally, but as HoI2 is so far from reality it should really cut down, to make the game much better.

 

[unmerged(23241)]

Sorry, but I think, there are 2 huge errors in this idea.

First.... from where are this informations ?
I think, you found informations about the casualitis in WW2.
These are the counts for all death people and all wounded people per country after the COMPLETE War.

First I got the information from several sources:

Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 23, Encyclopaedia
Britannica Inc., 1970, pp. 729-808

Campbell, Christy. The World War 2 Fact Book,
London: Macdonald & Co. (Publishers) Ltd., 1985

Goralski, Robert. World War 2 Almanac: 1931-1945,
New York: G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1981
Keegan, John. The Second World War, London: Century Hutchinson Ltd., 1989

Ready, J. Lee. Forgotten Allies, Volumes 1-2,
Jefferson: McFarland & Company, Inc. 1985

Snyder, Louis L. Louis L. Snyder’s Historical Guide
to World War //, Westport: Greenwood Press, 1982

Snyder, Louis L. The War: A Concise History /939-
/945, New York: Julian Messner Inc. 1960

Stokesbury, James L.A Short History of World War 2,
New York: William Morrow and Company, Inc., 1980

Sulzberger. C. L. World War 2, New York: American
Heritage, 1966

World Book Encyclopaedia, Volume 21, World Book
Inc., 1989, pp. 470-501


Young, Brigadier Peter (ed.). The World Almanac of
World War 2, New York: Pharos Books, 1981


Secondly, this is the total military casualties of dead and wounded, not including civilians.

From the results, it shows how each nation suffered casualties, with a ratio of wounded to killed.

But the trickle-Back factor is after one BATTLE, not the COMPLETE War.

Yes – but the trickle-back factor is an AVERAGE value determined by the war’s overall attrition rates on that particular country and it works over a complete game.

Also, bear in mind that each battle is different, with manpower lost varying after every battle – so manpower loss will be different every time.
While the trickle-back value remains a factor based on that countries overall attrition performance throughout the whole war, the casualties are always variable within each battle.

I agree it is not 100% realistic, but the game is not…I am simply using the methods used in HOI 2 to provide some detail.


The trickle-back factor is actually already included in the game, located here:

Hearts of Iron 2\db\misc

The standard factor is 0.5 – a simple 50%.

From the figures I researched, we can see that in combat nations suffered different returns to the manpower pool. Most strikingly, was Japan’s – with only 19% being returned. A reasonable assumption is that of Japanese Code Of Honour: not to surrender and fight to the death.

 

[unmerged(5110)]

Nice statistics! Can you do me a big favour?

http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Knowledge_Base

Go to the HoI2 wiki and list this article in the Knowledge base, along with your sources.

I would be much obliged to you!



Thank you! Great numbers!

Do not worry, I will handle all of the formatting

Just give me a link to it, and I'll take care of it

 

[unmerged(23241)]

Do not worry, I will handle all of the formatting

Just give me a link to it, and I'll take care of it

There is no link!

Just copy the info from this thread?

 

[unmerged(5110)]

http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Casualty_Statistics_for_WW2_by_country

OK! Here it is, all formatted, thanks for collecting the information, Finbar! I hope that you can get more awesome statistics

 

[unmerged(23241)]

http://hoi2.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Casualty_Statistics_for_WW2_by_country

OK! Here it is, all formatted, thanks for collecting the information, Finbar! I hope that you can get more awesome statistics

Nice work! You are welcome XieChenguo

 

[X_MasterDave_X]

@finbar

Yes – but the trickle-back factor is an AVERAGE value determined by the war’s overall attrition rates on that particular country and it works over a complete game.

Also, bear in mind that each battle is different, with manpower lost varying after every battle – so manpower loss will be different every time.
While the trickle-back value remains a factor based on that countries overall attrition performance throughout the whole war, the casualties are always variable within each battle.

first of all, very good Statistik, very interesting. I love Statistiks.....

but to the average Factor you said above......
Let me explain again what i mean, maybe it was not clear above.

I will make an example. We take some average german soldiers. Lets call one "Meier", another one is "Huber" and and last one is "Steiner":

These 3 "Privates" or better "Schützen" are geting part of the Wehrmacht....lets say in May 1939 (they are all from the same village :rofl: ).

So all 3 will fight in the whole WW2, if they live enough time.

In the War in Poland all 3 are fighting. Meier has very bad luck, and is killed in his first battle, Huber is light wounded, and Steiner is ok. After 2 weeks Huber is back to duty.

So, to make an statistik here, we have an trickle back factor of 50%. 2 of the 3 Soldiers were hit, and "out of order" after battle but Huber is back in some time, so 50%.

Booth of them are fighting in one of the last battles in Poland and both are severely wounded. So they are in hospital until January 1940, and March 1940. So we have an "trickle back factor" (lets call him TBF later) of 100%.

Now in France Huber and Steiner fight in another 3 Battles. Huber has luck, and Steiner is wounded 2 times. And the war goes on and on....

3 jears later (1943) both fight for some time in russia now..... and both are wounded other several times in russian battles. At last Huber dies in a battle in 1943. Steiner was other 4 times wounded, but lives..

In 1944 Steiner is so heavily wounded (lost a leg) so he is not longer part of the wehrmacht.

Now after the war, your statistik would say (for our 3 guys): 2 dead (Meier, Huber) and one wounded (Steiner).

But that has nothing to do with our TBF. Because in much battles we had Huber wounded. But at last, he is counted in the final statistik as dead, despite the fact he has fightet so many battles and was wounded so much times. For Meier the statistik is ok (dead in first battle) and for Steiner (heavily wounded at the end of War) in sight of his last battle. But as you see, Meier is a very rare example of WW2. I think, many soldiers were hurt much times before they died in an battle. But if you count an soldier dead, for the complete war, you ignore the times he was hourted in the other battles before. And the TBF should give you an count for every single battle.

So the complete counts of the end of the war are worthless, if you want to see, how many soldiers were wounded in every single battle. Lets say, Steiner hasn´t lost his Leg in 1944. Maybe he were wounded other times, but 3 months later were catched from US-Soldiers. So at the end of the War, Steiner is ok, and wouldnt be counted as dead or wounded, ignoring the fact, he was wounded in so much battles.

All I want to say is, that your statistik is absolutly ok if you see only the death soldiers. But the count of wounded in every battle cant be seen, because many of these soldiers were death later, and so ignored in the wounded statistik. Also the soldiers which are POWS or are ok in 1945 arent in the wounded statistik, also ignoring the fact, how much times they were hurted in the battles before.

And as I said above, I read something about of 6-10 Soldiers wounded for every death soldier in an average WW2-Battle. That would give an TBF between 80% and 95%. But also this counts are very different in other battles. Lets make two very different battles. The War in Lybia 1940....many Italiens were gone to POW, compared with the dead italien soldiers. The oposite example...a japanese Garrison on a small pacific island. Maybe everyone death, after heavy fightings, and the last soldiers made hara-kiri...

But as i also said, such an factor added to the absolute unrealistic HOI2-logaritsm would give you absolute small numbers of lost MP. So no one had ever problems with MP. It the logaritsm were nearer to reality a realistic TBF were very good to make an good simmulation of WW2-Battles. But HoI2 is very far from this, unfortunatly......

 

[X_MasterDave_X]

In the WIKI you could read now:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Average Percentage of Casualties Returned to Combat: 53.04%

This is the total military casualties of dead and wounded, not including civilians. ‘Returned’ means the manpower that is returned to the manpower pool (wounded).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

as stated above, dont think this is true. Next Point, how could be said this 53% could return to combat. The wounded counts out of the statistik shows every soldier who were wounded at the end of his duty (maybe severly wounded in one battle) OR at the end of WW2.

A lost leg in a Poland battle means, this soldier is in the wounded category....and has never returned to combat after this.

So i think, the opposite is true, and this 53% are the soldiers who never got back to duty, because they were wounded severely, or the war was over at all, before this soldiers were healed.

The statistik without this 2 sentences would be absolutly ok.

 

[unmerged(18738)]

OK, so what is the current proposal?

 

[ham79]

AXIS

Finland	      82		50			132			37.87%


AVERAGE: 	53.04%
The greatest attrition rates through combat are, in order of highest:

2nd Finland

Concisely, the modifiers would be:

Finland 0.3787

Your numbers for Finnish wounded are completely out of whack.

In Winter War finnish casualties were 22 800 dead, 43 600 wounded.

In Continuation War 66 000 dead, 188 000 wounded.

In Lapland War 1000 dead, 2900 wounded.

Which makes it 89 800 dead, 234500 wounded in total.

So correct line for Finland would thus be:

Finland 89.8                234.5            324.3                   72.30%

The modifier would be 0.7230

The new average % is 55.20

 

[X_MasterDave_X]

OK, so what is the current proposal?

The statistik in the WIKI without this 2 sentences (look above) would be absolutly ok. The statistik as pure information is ok.

But for the Trickle-Back Faktor: IMHO there should be done nothing, because nobody has realistic numbers for this factor. Finbar statistic is only for the complete war, not lone battles. My impression after reading some statistiks about ww2-battles is a faktor between 4 - 10 wounded for every dead soldier.

But for better results, the trickle back factor should be take nearer to zero....because the units in HoI2 loose to few points after every battle and are to fast refresed back to 100%. Paradox should made the time for refreshing the MP much slower. In HoI2 every player has 100% or 99% units. IRL most units e.g. in russia were at 50-70% throughout the years of the war. Only in june 1941 were real chances for 100% units. After that only the new units could have 100%. In 1945 most german units were about 10-25% of fullstrength.

my two cents....