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unmerged(3420)

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One major failing of the EU engine is how it models advances in technology. In one of its most marked differences from the original boardgame, EU adopted the "CIV / CIV II" model of technology advance by making it a function of government investment. In EU especially, a player will frequently devote nearly 100% of his government revenue to technology research so as to avoid inflation penalties.

That's a complete miss. No government has EVER made Research & Development such a high priority. Maybe 5% revenue (max) goes to such things. Most technology advances take place in the private sector.

A government can promote a CREATIVE environment that accelerates technology change. The best way to do that is to challenge those whose interests are invested in the existing way of doing things, preventing them from blocking change. Such a policy, of course, angers those who profit from things the way they are, and promotes unrest. Frequently those that are profiting from the existing system are aristocrats and merchants, whose wealth and position make them dangerous people to antagonize.

Rather than spending wads of cash, technology would be better modeled with the Domestic Policy sliders. Innovation would play a bigger role, both as generating more advances and as promoting more rebellion. Innovation should also affect maintenance expense, as military equipment is discarded at a more rapid rate and more technical blind alleys result in more waste and expense. This would also make the Monarch ratings more important, as it would be impossible to compensate for a poor monarch by spending more money.

Another good idea would be to have a "Taxation" DP slider. Rather than having land revenue be fixed, allow the player to demand more income, at a risk of greater unrest.
 

Tel

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While you may be right in terms of realism, I think this is not the way to go in terms of gameplay. At least for me, being able to choose the specific projects my country will work on is one of the most fun parts of a game. I love the technology tree in HOI and to a lesser extent in Civ.

Simply having innovation as a slider essentially removes research as one of the factors in the game. Sure some countries will advance faster than others, but it will be something running in the background, not really something the player is doing. IMHO even the sliders from EU are too simplistic. Just having an innovation slider is moving towards the fiasco that is macromanagement, and I hated MOO3 because of that.
 

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I agree with you here Tel. I hope however that the HOI model is changed, as it is you can develop advanced medium tanks by 39 (panthers) with targeted research. The problem with the tech tree is with a little coordination you can alter historical realism with said targeted research.

There has to be a buffer, something that thwarts this potential exploit, because if the tech tree exists like it does in HOI, I will have tank techs by the ACW, unless something else is thrown into the mix that prevents me from doing targeted research.

Odin
 

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Originally posted by Tel
While you may be right in terms of realism, I think this is not the way to go in terms of gameplay.

There is a gameplay benefit to technology choices. But why make it money? Make it something else. Give each nation "research points" based on Monarch ability, founding of Universities, experience in the area in question (military campaigns create military "research points"), etc.

Give the player choices, for sure. Just not money choices. That's just too distorting.
 

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Just my opinion on this subject:

I wouldn't be heartbroken to see a model where, rather than investment going towards research, the research just happens -- a random scale where, every so often a new technology becomes available WORLDWIDE. The things that would dictate any given country from utilizing this new technology would be:

1) Available money
2) Available resources
3) Available production capacity

Unlike earlier in history, in this era new inventions traveled the world over. The United States didn't have to reinvent the Minie Ball/Rifled Musket after the French already had, they just had to have the three items I mentioned above in order to produce them & equip their army with them. Unless I'm mistaken, Russia was behind everyone else on this invention NOT because they didn't have the technology to build them, but because they didn't have the money, resources & production capacity to arm their whole army with them right away.

My proposal probably won't be very popular with y'all, but it seems to be more realistic to me -- short of perhaps still utilizing a small research budget which, if you invent something FIRST you get a short (year?) monopoly on that invention...
 

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In HoI I have a habit of neglecting my navy and airforce technologies. The timeframe is short enough that it is not really a huge problem to have a "1936 era" navy in 1943.



However, I am going to have to be more balanced in Victoria. It would be funny to deploy a massive fleet of wooden sail boats during WWI. :p


EnPeaSea
 

crazy canuck

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True, there are some technologies that would be copied by other nations. But as I recall it, a great strength of GB was it technical innovations and its ability to keep ahead of the crowd.

Much as the United States was able to do (and probably continues to do) in that latter part of the century.

The most technologically innovative nation will likely also be the most successful.

You're point regarding having the resources implement the technology is a good one but I think it is separate from discovering the tech in the first place.
 

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Of course, researching tanks while Lee is going at it against Grant wouldn't be very realistic. If the HoI tech tree is to be preserved (with its pros and cons), maybe a system is required where certain possibilities are "opened up" at a certain date. For example, those who have researched the whole branch of the tree leading up to tanks by 1860, can only research tanks themselves in, let's say, 1910 or something.

Also, the idea of global research is an interesting one. It would be close to reality and not so difficult to implement. The country that makes a particular discovery can use it right away, while other countries will have to buy it. Not directly from the inventing country (this would make Britain for example too powerful, since it could use the cash generated in this way to research new things and thus getting a huge tech lead in no time), but the "world market" or, if that's your desire, through espionage (at the risk of worsening relations when discovered).

Just my thoughts...
 

Tel

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I certainly wouldn't be opposed to making something other than money be the input to technology advances. Just so long as I have control over what path my country will take.

Actually, I think the "full investment" concept in High Command was a good system. Basically each point you invested in research or improving industry or whatever got you halfway to full investment. Full investment gave you a certain % chance of success in research (I think 5% chance for an improvement in each category that could be improved on your units) or a certain % increase in production. So 1 point invested in research got you 50% of the full investment benefits (or 2.5% chance of research success), 2 points got you half of the way from there, or 75% of full investment, 3 points got you 87.5% and so on. The diminishing returns meant that you could not just pump all your investment into one area and get far ahead there.
There was also a good system for longer term projects in rockets and nukes where discovery could not happen before a certain date, and your investment was averaged over the entire game length to determine your success chance. So you could not suddenly pump a bunch of research in nukes and discover it.

I also agree with those who worry about the charge up certain branches of the tech tree you can do in HOI. I suspect that stopping this is the reason for the "tech events" mentioned in the game description. My guess at the way that works is that there are events that can fire after a certain date in the game that will give you access to another branch of the tree, but you will have to have discovered some critical technologies to trigger the event.

So pulling an example out of the air, there might be an event that opens up a branch to research ironclads for the navy. This event would require you to have researched say the steam engine already. Once you have completed that research, there is say a 5% chance per month of getting this event starting either in 1850 or when you complete your steam engine research.
 

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Originally posted by crooktooth
One major failing of the EU engine is how it models advances in technology.

The game doesn't model the advance of technology; it models the application of technology to the state. And that is a function of government spending. Consider the Brown Bess musket; why was it the same for 115 years? Not because there were no improvements in musket-making, but because it would have been too expensive to implement them on a nation-wide scale. We are spending money on changing the stuff the government uses, not inventing it.
 

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Re: Re: Realistic Technology Advance Model

Originally posted by King of Men
The game doesn't model the advance of technology; it models the application of technology to the state. And that is a function of government spending. Consider the Brown Bess musket; why was it the same for 115 years? Not because there were no improvements in musket-making, but because it would have been too expensive to implement them on a nation-wide scale. We are spending money on changing the stuff the government uses, not inventing it.

But much, if not most, technology "spending" in EU and HoI were on "non-government" technologies. How much money did the German government spend on "Fluid Catalytic Cracking"? How many ducats did the Doge of Vencie spend on "Infrastructure" research? None. The advances were made by German chemical companies and Italian banking houses. It was private parties, be they individuals or organizations, that pioneered change.

I do agree that players need a role in this. Somehow they should be given some latitude in shaping their society so that some advances are promoted or emphasised. I think the Diplomatic Policy sliders are a better model for this than the EU/HoI technology trees.

Though that "diminishing returns" concept from High Command is sound, too...
 

Tel

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Re: Re: Re: Realistic Technology Advance Model

Originally posted by crooktooth
But much, if not most, technology "spending" in EU and HoI were on "non-government" technologies. How much money did the German government spend on "Fluid Catalytic Cracking"? How many ducats did the Doge of Vencie spend on "Infrastructure" research? None. The advances were made by German chemical companies and Italian banking houses. It was private parties, be they individuals or organizations, that pioneered change.

I do agree that players need a role in this. Somehow they should be given some latitude in shaping their society so that some advances are promoted or emphasised. I think the Diplomatic Policy sliders are a better model for this than the EU/HoI technology trees.

Though that "diminishing returns" concept from High Command is sound, too...

Maybe I'm just not picturing what you are for the policy sliders, but that seems like way too little control to me. It makes me think of just adjusting a slider to +4 innovation and waiting for a random message saying "Guess what, our ACME Co. just invented steel rivets! Aren't we great?"

I suppose if the consensus (and by "consensus" I mean "what Paradox decides to do") is to move away from using money, or production points to choose which specific project to research, I might not mind a more abstract system. But I would want a major influence on what gets done in any case. For example, I could see having say 20 points I could use to prioritize certain areas of research. And I could choose to spend some or all of these points backing a company that is working on improving the speed of its merchant fleet.
But if I am the UK, I have to be able to prioritze naval research over other fields, not simply try to make my country pro-research.

I would only really be happy if I had total control of which specific projects to pick though.
 

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What has to be fixed from HOI to Victoria & HOI2 is the ability to swap priorities on a daily basis--Monday's are naval research, Tues. are land warefare techs, etc. Strategic Command's point allocation is pretty good but it still allows swaps.
 

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What has to be fixed from HOI to Victoria & HOI2 is the ability to swap priorities on a daily basis--Monday's are naval research, Tues. are land warefare techs, etc. Strategic Command's point allocation is pretty good but it still allows swaps.


That isn't very realistic
 

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IMO, the player should be involved in some of the details of technological advancement, particularly in the field of military issues. Just look at the techs the Royal Navy worked on during just prior to the First World War - oil propulsion, direction finding, submersible craft, improved torpedoes, wireless, etc. All of these were not just the application of technology, but rather the actual development of new technology. While I can see a good argument that tech in the civilian field (i.e. improved manufacturing methods, for example), the player still should have more control over military tech.
 

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IMHO:D

I actually dislike the whole techtree idea. It only serves to give human player a rather unfair ability to exploit the tech engine.

Remember Imperialism II? It had a simple and functioning techtree, but aiming directly in to light artillery opened a "window of opportunity" during which the human player (who had amassed a huge stockpile of raw materials) conquered thw whole world in just couple of gameturns using those newly developed artillery pieces (against which the AI had nothing).

In HoI, how interesting would it be if the AI had scripted tech -paths to ensure Königstigers in 1938? And yet human player uses the feature to his advantage.

So, please, no techtree!

Make Vic so, that players will have to make tough choises of _grand_strategic_scale_ and don´t give us a sure winning method by introducing an exploitable techtree.

I like technologies though, but only when they are added as chrome. The Dreadnought (battleship) for example was an important military technology advance, but in the grand strategy it didn´t really change anything.

Edit:

What I meant about The Dreadnought was that it changed the naval situation as a whole; suddenly every major country had an opportunity to start the naval race on nearly equal terms. The change was universal and didn´t give the UK a chance to destroy their rivals.
 
Last edited:

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Originally posted by Energizer
IMHO:D

I actually dislike the whole techtree idea. It only serves to give human player a rather unfair ability to exploit the tech engine.

Remember Imperialism II? It had a simple and functioning techtree, but aiming directly in to light artillery opened a "window of opportunity" during which the human player (who had amassed a huge stockpile of raw materials) conquered thw whole world in just couple of gameturns using those newly developed artillery pieces (against which the AI had nothing).

In HoI, how interesting would it be if the AI had scripted tech -paths to ensure Königstigers in 1938? And yet human player uses the feature to his advantage.

So, please, no techtree!

I tend to think that this problem is not inherent to any tech tree, but is a result of there not being enough interlinkages between various techs. In other words, you should require more prerequisites for each new tech. That way, it becomes practically impossible to race too far ahead. If that issue is addressed, a tech tree is, IMHO, quite feasible. I actually thought that it was one of the major advances in HOI over EU2.

I like technologies though, but only when they are added as chrome. The Dreadnought (battleship) for example was an important military technology advance, but in the grand strategy it didn´t really change anything.

Edit:

What I meant about The Dreadnought was that it changed the naval situation as a whole; suddenly every major country had an opportunity to start the naval race on nearly equal terms. The change was universal and didn´t give the UK a chance to destroy their rivals.

You are somewhat right, but the UK did have a window of opportunity when they had the Dreadnought & had completed several other dreadnought-type BBs & BCs before the Germans completed a single dreadnought (the German building programme went on a two-year break after the Dreadnought to design their own version). Such "windows of opportunity" should be at least plausible, although in this case the cause was not so much the rate of tech advancement, but rather the very long time it normally took states to build modern warships vs. how quickly HMS Dreadnought was built.
 

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Originally posted by Johnny Canuck
I tend to think that this problem is not inherent to any tech tree, but is a result of there not being enough interlinkages between various techs. In other words, you should require more prerequisites for each new tech. That way, it becomes practically impossible to race too far ahead. If that issue is addressed, a tech tree is, IMHO, quite feasible. I actually thought that it was one of the major advances in HOI over EU2.
I fully agree. A technology tree is an amazing addition to any strategy game of this scope if done right. I just needs to be more like a web, with many branches interlocking.
 

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Originally posted by Johnny Canuck
...
You are somewhat right, but the UK did have a window of opportunity when they had the Dreadnought & had completed several other dreadnought-type BBs & BCs before the Germans completed a single dreadnought (the German building programme went on a two-year break after the Dreadnought to design their own version). Such "windows of opportunity" should be at least plausible, although in this case the cause was not so much the rate of tech advancement, but rather the very long time it normally took states to build modern warships vs. how quickly HMS Dreadnought was built.
...
Yes, it´s a matter of balance. Certain techs could and maybe should give advantages, but the effects should be very finely tuned. I´d love to see Vic concentrate on diplomacy and grand strategy; making political descisions with limited recources and knowledge.

IMHO, techtree is problematic because of perfect hindsight. If every human player knows which technologies to pursue, we should give the AI the same knowledge - and that would ruin the whole gaming experience and atmosphere the game will try to create.

I think that I´d prefer tech events that would be semi-randomly triggered by domestic policies etc. Then human player would not know in advance the exact timing of certain tecnologies.
 

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The R&D model shopuld definitely not be government expenditure driven. On the other hand the massive technological advance of Germany in the second half of the 19th Century was publicly financed in that German governments invested far more in the education sector than did any other government.

But the R&D input has to be a function of national culture, say historical level of literacy, player spending on education, possibly the building of universities/technical colleges and, not least, the level of industrialization.

All four variables are equally important. I would also note that if a "serfdom" slider is inbcluded its main effect is to hamper R&D.

But in Victoria the probability of getting innnovations through events opr espionage should be far higher than in HoI. And I also think that that technology shoulc be "tradeable".