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SeraphAscending

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they lose strenght on big distance , we actualy proved ( we only had a theory with some observation prior of the test) that light is bend by gravity not long ago, so long-distance fights inside a system gravitational pool is not realy the best for long-range lasers .
You are talking about a scenario that is way more than 100,000km distance there, though. (for reference the moon is 384,000 km far away)
If you are fighting in the proximity of a massive object that has enough pull to distort the path of light significantly on such a "short" distance, you have other issues than ongoing space battles.

all the ships are piloted by programs , the same program that use prediction to shot precise lasers is against program made to predict enemy fire and "dodge it" .

in the empty space time is something realy wanky , 0.03 seconds coul be lagged or faster . if the target is moving at around lightspeed thats a realy hard shot. even if the target is moving at half the speed of light . it just need to predict the moment of your shot and dodge it.
We are talking sublight speeds. Momentum is at least somewhat of a thing.
Altering the course of an object of anything larger than a marble at half light speed enough to dodge a laser in .03 seconds would require ridiculous amounts of energy and acceleration.
Even if you can perfectly predict when and where the enemy will be shooting, you will not be able to dodge it.

Your argument exclusively holds up if we discard the entirety of mechanical and relativistic physics.
If you want to do that, fine. But don't argue from "realism" here. This is not realistic. This is not how physics work as far as we know.

immediate-radar coordinates that are by light are absolutly useless , by the time the "radar" see the target , it already moved and you need to make prediction of where it will be . the game talk about gravity based radars that don't realy have time-lagg theoricaly , but all the ships equipement has time-lagg ( moving the tower to target, reading the information and deciding the targeting position )
Again, inertia is a thing. If your information is 0.3 seconds out of date (100,000km) you can still have very good estimates of where the enemy is going to be in another 0.3 seconds. They will not be able to willy-nilly alter their speed and trajectory by any arbitrary amount in this short of a timespan. The energy consumption would be ridiculous. It would be absurd if they could do that non-stop.

Will 100% of shots hit? No, probably not at 100,000km. Will almost all shots hit at 10,000km? I would be surprised if not. The roundtrip time of light is 0.07 seconds and the target is at least several meter in length. Not hitting means you're not even bothering to aim.
 
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Verx90

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You are talking about a scenario that is way more than 100,000km distance there, though. (for reference the moon is 384,000 km far away)
If you are fighting in the proximity of a massive object that has enough pull to distort the path of light significantly on such a "short" distance, you have other issues than ongoing space battles.
why should you fight at any distance that is lower than that ? you can see anything in space and there is nothing realy stopping your bullets ( if there are no gravitational pull) any fight would make sense only on a similar distances or more .

We are talking sublight speeds. Momentum is at least somewhat of a thing.
Altering the course of an object of anything larger than a marble at half light speed enough to dodge a laser in .03 seconds would require ridiculous amounts of energy and acceleration.
Even if you can perfectly predict when and where the enemy will be shooting, you will not be able to dodge it.

Your argument exclusively holds up if we discard the entirety of mechanical and relativistic physics.
If you want to do that, fine. But don't argue from "realism" here. This is not realistic. This is not how physics work as far as we know.

well, to allow FTL , all the phisics we know make no sense , so ...

but its not realy relevant , if all weapons shot precisely on the target to dodge is simply altering your trajectory . its the same logic of dodging flack cannons style of firing , simply on bigger distances and way faster speed without air resistance.

i'm not sure why you think this break relativistic physics ,all that matter is accelleration, a simple change in course at such speed is a matter of Km in 0.03 serconds and lasers are not realy that big , naturaly nothing in such battles could be manouvred by humans without some kind of magic inertia cancelling thing.

i'm talking about SC there , battleships or bigger ships in general have all sort of other problems , "realisticaly" a corvets ,destroyer or a battleships have the very same ( almost irrelevant difference to the distances) dimension and speeds , they are all free target or not based on the acceleration they can reach . if your space-aim is perfect and you speed is limited , the only important factor in space battle is how many guns you can shot and if shields are a thing.


Again, inertia is a thing. If your information is 0.3 seconds out of date (100,000km) you can still have very good estimates of where the enemy is going to be in another 0.3 seconds. They will not be able to willy-nilly alter their speed and trajectory by any arbitrary amount in this short of a timespan. The energy consumption would be ridiculous. It would be absurd if they could do that non-stop.

Will 100% of shots hit? No, probably not at 100,000km. Will almost all shots hit at 10,000km? I would be surprised if not. The roundtrip time of light is 0.07 seconds and the target is at least several meter in length. Not hitting means you're not even bothering to aim.

again , if you can accellerate at lets say , 300000 m/s(edit: a general bullet has an accelleration of 200000 m/s ) ( its not even close at the speed of light) in that 0.03 seconds you can change your position in comparison to 0.03 seconds prior by 9000 m . (edit: and thats if you have NO TIME LAGG with your data gathering and aiming and firing . )

now , tell me if your lasers have a radious ( how it is called in english? mhhh.. its radious right? ) of 9 Km , then yes, you are gona hit them. but i'm quite sure that not even the TITAN laser has that radious .



for a SC , once they are closer , they are simply too fast for any meccanical mounted weapon , it doesn't realy matter how big they are , they need prediction to hit the fast moving SC , and that prediction is a calculation, and the SC can make calculation of its own to not be where it is predicted to be . its a information war at that point , where point defence fire where they thing the SC will be , and the SC trying not to be there.
 
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Starfury

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again , if you can accellerate at lets say , 300000 m/s(edit: a general bullet has an accelleration of 200000 m/s ) ( its not even close at the speed of light) in that 0.03 seconds you can change your position in comparison to 0.03 seconds prior by 9000 m . (edit: and thats if you have NO TIME LAGG with your data gathering and aiming and firing . )
Changing your velocity by 300 000m/s in 0.03s is an acceleration of 10 000 000 m/s^2 or 1 million g.

If you can get your opponent to subject his ship and crew to these kinds of forces, you don't even need to shoot, they've just killed their crew and wrecked their ship anyway.
 
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SeraphAscending

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Changing your velocity by 300 000m/s in 0.03s is an acceleration of 10 000 000 m/s^2 or 1 million g.

If you can get your opponent to subject his ship and crew to these kinds of forces, you don't even need to shoot, they've just killed their crew and wrecked their ship anyway.
Exactly. The force of acceleration is way more than the force of a kinetic impact at that point. So what would even be the point of kinetic weaponry if ships can withstand seemingly any kinetic forces applied to them?

well, to allow FTL , all the phisics we know make no sense , so ...
Hard no.
You could have an FTL system that exclusively works as a long-distance gateway coming at some significant cost. (i.e. large windup that shouldn't be interrupted). During FTL transit no interaction outside of your FTL warp bubble / hyperlane is possible.
There entire rest of the physics could still work entirely as we know it. Sublight inertia, gravitational pull, space-time-distortion and all that fun stuff. This would mean all space combat would be completely devoid of all impact of FTL being a thing (except for reinforcements).

But in general, you completely missed my point.
I am not opposed to having things like strike craft and other non-realistic concepts in the game.
You just can not argue for them under the guise of "realism". That has been the point i was making.
Some things are just sci-fi tropes and people like them, because they are cool. That's fine. Does not make them realistic, though.

If your argument is in general "but we discard physics anyway" then what you are making is not an argument for realism. And therefore you missed my point.
 
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Nevars

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Changing your velocity by 300 000m/s in 0.03s is an acceleration of 10 000 000 m/s^2 or 1 million g.

If you can get your opponent to subject his ship and crew to these kinds of forces, you don't even need to shoot, they've just killed their crew and wrecked their ship anyway.
I think stellaris spaceship problaby have some sort of inertia canceller/dampener otherwise a lot of things would break, spacebattle wouldn't be like it is in game, etc.
 

SeraphAscending

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I think stellaris spaceship problaby have some sort of inertia canceller/dampener otherwise a lot of things would break, spacebattle wouldn't be like it is in game, etc.
Again. The point was that you can't argue for "realism" in space battles.
They don't make sense in physics as we know it. You need to discard most of it, so anything makes sense at all.
That's okay, though. Fantasy stories are also fun and they obviously use magic to justify how things work. That's fine. They don't claim "realism". Neither should stories/games/whatever with space battles as they are commonly portrayed.
 
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Verx90

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Changing your velocity by 300 000m/s in 0.03s is an acceleration of 10 000 000 m/s^2 or 1 million g.

If you can get your opponent to subject his ship and crew to these kinds of forces, you don't even need to shoot, they've just killed their crew and wrecked their ship anyway.

i guess you didn't read evrything , so i will be brief .

i was talking about SC , with non present crew\ human pilot . the idea of humans fighting space battle is as sci-fi as the spacebattle itself (as they need some sort of inertia magic-wombo factor in it) . whats the point of human on board if evrything must be made by computing and calculations . it offer only weakness . maybe remotely controlled craft that obbey human commands about opening fire or something.

Exactly. The force of acceleration is way more than the force of a kinetic impact at that point. So what would even be the point of kinetic weaponry if ships can withstand seemingly any kinetic forces applied to them?


Hard no.
You could have an FTL system that exclusively works as a long-distance gateway coming at some significant cost. (i.e. large windup that shouldn't be interrupted). During FTL transit no interaction outside of your FTL warp bubble / hyperlane is possible.
There entire rest of the physics could still work entirely as we know it. Sublight inertia, gravitational pull, space-time-distortion and all that fun stuff. This would mean all space combat would be completely devoid of all impact of FTL being a thing (except for reinforcements).

But in general, you completely missed my point.
I am not opposed to having things like strike craft and other non-realistic concepts in the game.
You just can not argue for them under the guise of "realism". That has been the point i was making.
Some things are just sci-fi tropes and people like them, because they are cool. That's fine. Does not make them realistic, though.

If your argument is in general "but we discard physics anyway" then what you are making is not an argument for realism. And therefore you missed my point.

i'm sorry, but for our current understanding of phisics, FTL is timetravel , as such any space war with FTL would be a time madness jumbo wombo with no sense.

as such, the idea itself of FTL wars is as sci-fi as a inertia dumpener .


so, if you want to considerate FTL , your "bar" for realism must be as low as possible. since in a universe with FTL that is not time-travel, there must be alot of different phisical laws in comparison of what we understand of our reality .



edit: you should always considerate that science doesn't try to tell you what reality is, it try just to describe it. a "story " should be "loyal" to its phisical laws, even if they are absurd .

an example, a universe where there is gravity , evrything more normaly , can't have dragons with small and slow wings in it. you add magic? then you have magic. does it have rules? etc etc. it doesn't mean they are not "realistic" , it means they follow a determined rule. when a story doesn't follow its predetermined rules it is stupid.

since evryone in stellaris can move at FTL with no repercursion , ships acellerate and stop in matter of seconds , there is no inertia. if there is no inertia then accelleration doesn't pose a problem for living material. whats important is that the story is " congrous " ... not that a day someone wake up, shot its ship at FTL against the enemy ship and evrything get destroyed , because that go against a wolrd build phisic law. for example , in star wars , it is not bad that they have air in space , another universe another set of laws . its bad because theyr FTL laws got destroyed by one scene in the story .



edit: if you want to considerate only the realism , with nothing else apart from our understanding of reality. then... laser are not at an usefull level , space battles are expensive and incredibly stupid and should probably be avoided at all cost. and most of the weapons involved would probably be rockets.
 
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Starfury

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i guess you didn't read evrything , so i will be brief .

i was talking about SC , with non present crew\ human pilot . the idea of humans fighting space battle is as sci-fi as the spacebattle itself (as they need some sort of inertia magic-wombo factor in it) . whats the point of human on board if evrything must be made by computing and calculations . it offer only weakness . maybe remotely controlled craft that obbey human commands about opening fire or something.
Talk about not reading everything. In my post I clearly stated that forces like your proposing would be fatal for the ship as well as the crew (and a whole lot more damaging than whatever the ship was trying to dodge)

You want to make an argument about how impossible it would be to hit strike craft at a distance? Then either don't try to argue using real physics, or stick to their limits. You definitely can't argue about sensor round-trip-times for the attacker while proposing a defender that performs maneouvres that defy multiple laws of physics.
 

SeraphAscending

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@Verx90 It seems like we will not find common ground, because we are talking about different things.

I know FTL is time travel, because i had my share of lectures on physics, including some specifically about relativistic dynamics.

If whatever FTL-tech is available has no possible application in sublight combat (because of tech overhead, windup times, disturbance sensitivity, calibration complexity, etc.), you can easily have everything that is not interstellar travel be working under normal physics as we know it.
Ships would still have inertia, projectiles travel at sublight speed, gravitational trajectory distortion needs to be corrected for and all that.

Imagine a warp drive that takes one whole day to wind up and in that time the total mass inside the warp bubble must not change or the building warp bubble would collapse.
  • no projectiles could be fired
  • no propulsion engine could run
  • no impact of anything could be tolerated
This drive would have no direct combat application.

But this drive would be suffcient to build functioning interstellar empires.
You could have exchange of goods and information at high frequency, massive troop transport, a space fleet and all that stuff. But no application of FTL-tech in active combat.
 

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Imagine a warp drive that takes one whole day to wind up and in that time the total mass inside the warp bubble must not change or the building warp bubble would collapse.

Screen Shot 2022-06-20 at 11.20.29 AM.png
 
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You want to make an argument about how impossible it would be to hit strike craft at a distance? Then either don't try to argue using real physics, or stick to their limits. You definitely can't argue about sensor round-trip-times for the attacker while proposing a defender that performs maneouvres that defy multiple laws of physics.

if the machine is unmanned , materials are all that matter , an accelleration of 200000 - 300000 is not exatly unsusteinable by our metals . so , yes, a SC that has such accelleration capacity could dodge your lasers while theyr weapon mount can still manage to track the target. i ... never used the word "impossible" because if you have 500 lasers filling the space inside 9 Km , they may hit the target ( like flack cannons tactics against airplanes) .
I know FTL is time travel, because i had my share of lectures on physics, including some specifically about relativistic dynamics.

If whatever FTL-tech is available has no possible application in sublight combat (because of tech overhead, windup times, disturbance sensitivity, calibration complexity, etc.), you can easily have everything that is not interstellar travel be working under normal physics as we know it.
Ships would still have inertia, projectiles travel at sublight speed, gravitational trajectory distortion needs to be corrected for and all that.

Imagine a warp drive that takes one whole day to wind up and in that time the total mass inside the warp bubble must not change or the building warp bubble would collapse.
  • no projectiles could be fired
  • no propulsion engine could run
  • no impact of anything could be tolerated
This drive would have no direct combat application.

But this drive would be suffcient to build functioning interstellar empires.
You could have exchange of goods and information at high frequency, massive troop transport, a space fleet and all that stuff. But no application of FTL-tech in active combat.


ehh... those are all limitations you put on FTL to have a chance to use our concept of reality in space fight , that said.

"normal physics as we know it" if laser follow our understanding of phisics they don't get that power, they are useless on long distance . 1mm diameter beam coming out of the laser will spread out to a 1.2 meter beam at a distance of 1km, losing most of its power. this mean that you need a realy strong laser powering source for a realy compact and powerfull laser .... yare yare , point is , the only weapons actualy usefull for space-battle will end up being rockets and counter against rockets , i guess mass drivers could get a good chance , but theyr have a different problem from lasers, they don't care about distance , but theyr final speed will be correlated to the power the weapon can exercize . so they need big ass weapons to shot the massdrive at a significant speed to make it harder to dodge.


lasers... are useless on range. if you don't give them a way to have infinite energy so....

lasers are going to be exelent point defence (For theyr limited range) , when you can predict with precision where something will be , as the limit of lasers are the mount that use them and the speed of the target .
 
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Realistically, what is it that should make Strike Craft successful? Why should they do anywhere near as much damage as they do? In part, I ask this based on relative size of the craft and of the weapons that they use.

Based on a number of factors in Stellaris (Command Points, Cost in Alloys, Build Times, number of S-slot equivalents, etc.), I view Battleships as being 8x the mass/volume of a Corvette. If they are proportional to each other, the Battleships would be 2x as long, 2x as wide, and 2x as tall as a Corvette – put another way you could kind of squish 8 Corvettes into the same volume as one Battleship. Vanilla descriptions of Hangars and the SC that are “mounted” there talk about 8-craft wings that come out and attack targets. Even if the Hangar slot basically takes up more volume than an L-slot turreted weapon, a Battleship could conceivably have 6 Hangars mounted (by L-slot equivalence) and that’s just taking up maybe a third of the Battleship’s internal volume. So if we only have a Hangar hold the 8-craft wing, and each craft takes up 1/8th of the 1/18th of the Battleship’s internal volume, then at most each craft is 1/144th of the volume of the Battleship.

Weapon-wise, all of the weapons on a Corvette are worth 3 S-slots (either 3 actual S-slots, or a G-slot (M-slot equivalent) and an S-slot, or 2 S-slots and a P-slot (S-slot equivalent)). A Battleship could carry 6 L-slot weapons or variations that would each be equivalent to 24 S-slots, or 8x the S-slots of a Corvette. This makes sense based on relative volume and mass of the two ships. But the typical ratio of damage output increases by 2.45x each size (square root of 6). For example, a Corvette with 3 S-slot Tier-3 X-Ray Lasers averages 4.69 damage per day each or 14.07 DPD total, while a Battleship with 6 L-slot T3 X-Ray Lasers averages 28.17 DPD each, 169.02 DPD total, or basically 12x (12.01) as much as the Corvette (two size increases and a doubling of slots). Not counting the outsized increase given to X-slots, if we accept that an 8x difference in size leads to a 12x difference in damage, then a 144x difference in size would translate to north of 330x damage (that’s 2.29x to the 7th power in doubling to just 128x size).

Compared to the 169.02 DPD of the Battleship, a single Tier-3 SC (at even just 1/128th the size) should do less than 0.51 DPD or 4.10 DPD as an 8-craft wing – currently, Tier-3 Advanced Strike Craft do 40.00 DPD as an 8-craft wing. If each Hangar is actually holding one or more 8-craft wings as spares, the size ratio could be even bigger, leading to an even larger difference in damage – at 1/256th, which would probably be just one spare wing, the damage drops to 1/755th of the Battleship, 0.22 DPD each or 1.79 DPD per wing.

How would 1.79 DPD for the attacks from a Tier-3 L-slot-equivalent weapon compare to even a T3 L-slot X-Ray Laser’s 28.17 DPD (never mind the 32.62 DPD for a T3+ Proton Launcher)? Sure, the engagement range of the SC/Hangar could allow its carrier to stay outside of its enemy’s guns, but in practice this distance defense is fleeting at best and the length of time for SC to reach attack Range cuts into their advantage, so let’s just think of it as a 50% Range advantage over the X-Ray Laser. And compared to an X-Ray Laser, SC typically enjoy full Shield penetration (versus having to deal with Shields at a 50% damage malus for Lasers). Between the two, that might be worth as much as half of the X-Ray Laser’s damage – at just 50% of the X-Ray Laser’s DPD, the T3 SC should be doing 14.09 DPD, or about 7.9x what its size would tell you it should do.

In order to justify that much more damage than what I figured, Strike Craft would have to be getting huge advantages elsewhere that we hadn’t accounted for. The one that makes the most sense to me is that the much closer firing Range of the SC could account for more precise shots, but that’s a huge increase by one factor alone. And all of this assumes that nothing is shooting at the SC wings, cutting into the carrier’s damage output while the carrier itself isn’t necessarily taking damage. If shooting at the SC versus at the carrier is seen as an advantage, maybe that cuts into the remaining difference.

The flip side of this is SC Hull and Shields, or just total “hit points”. A Tier-3 Battleship doesn’t exist, so we’d have to work with a Tier-3 Corvette, meaning Advanced Corvette Hulls (500 Hull) and a maximum of 330 points in Shields and/or Armor, so 830 hit points (assuming no other modifiers). A single SC is around 1/63rd the damage capacity of a Corvette, so 1/63rd of the Corvette’s hit points would be 13.20 per SC. Currently, each T3 SC is shown to have 45 Hull and 30 Shields, or 75 hit points (around 5.7x as much).

Matched up against that would be Flak (and to a lesser extent Point-Defense). Both weapons go into P-slots, so they’re basically equivalent to an S-slot shooting at a Corvette. If they do the equivalent damage as a T3 S-slot X-Ray Laser, then they would be doing 1/63rd of that if they’re expected to hit SC at the same basic rate. T3 S-slot XRL is 4.69 DPD, divided by 63 is 0.07 DPD per 1/32nd S-slot equivalent. That’s one 1-hit-point hit every 13.4 shots (7% net Accuracy, after removing Evasion minus Tracking), at the 4.6 day Cooldown-per-shot of the S-slot Laser. But the Flak (or PD) mount is still an S-slot as a whole, so you’re talking about 32 tiny weapons firing over 4.6 days, or 6.96 shots/day or 3.48 per 0.5 day Cooldown. If you consolidate the 3.48 shots per Cooldown phase to a single effective shot, it’s basically a 24% net Accuracy shot, leading to 0.47 DPD. If you state Accuracy as 75% (same as vanilla) and then expect a net Tracking around 50 points below the SC’s Evasion, you’d get that effective damage rate – if you expect Flak Tracking to end up negating SC Evasion, then base Accuracy would need to be around 25% on 2 shots per day to get the same rate. This compares to Tier-2 Flak Cannons at 2.5 damage per hit and 4.50 DPD, or T4 Flak Artillery at 4 DPH and 6.00 DPD (at 75% Accuracy and regularly matching Tracking to Evasion). The changes in damage rates versus SC hit points go from 75/6 = 12.5 mount-days to destroy an SC, to 13.2/0.48 = 27.5 mount-days - might need to look at balancing that somewhere (probably Hangar Cooldown for replacement wings).

Of course, Ranges get really tight at this point, with S-slots typically having half the range of an L-slot, basically halving Range every 2 drops in size (or 0.707x each drop in size). An S-slot Laser has Range 40, and our realistic SC is 1/32nd the size of the Corvette, so that’s 7 drops in size, leading to a Range of 7. The Flak mount is in the same boat, with its weapons only having Range 7 – if you want to extend that Range by even a little bit, you’d need to give back in effective damage (extending Cooldown is probably your only option, with Accuracy already so low). I don’t know if you’d be able to justify (even with drops in DPD) much more than a doubling to Range 15, which is far less than the current Range 30 for Flak.

If I was looking at this much more from a realistic standpoint, I would first change Ranges relative to the system map to be much shorter (and/or make turreted weapons have junk Accuracy at full Range) and then let Strike Craft attack from closer to their current apparent Ranges – Strike Craft should be fantastic at attacking well outside of turreted-guns Range, and their naturally low damage should be viable because of that Range. I’d still look to boost their damage through some kind of critical hits or something similar, but I don’t think you’d really need to get it all the way up to near the other L-slot weapons. I’d also look at getting advanced versions of SC (like how Proton/Neutron Launchers are to Lasers/Plasma weapons), probably some sort of bomber – that would be after actually getting a Tier-4 SC as well.

Lastly, the changes to Flak’s Range would greatly impact its ability to protect large sections of the fleet, and might require changes to how fleet formations work to ensure coverage for otherwise Flak-less warships. Even a drop from Range 30 to 15 would basically cut the coverage area by 3/4 (Stellaris doesn’t handle the vertical element well enough to worry about it actually cutting the volume by 7/8).

As always, this has been a look at how Strike Craft might more realistically be shown in Stellaris. If you're not at all worried about it being realistic, nothing to see here, move along.
Strike craft, by virtue of being small short-range vessels, don't have to waste space on things like spare life-support, crew accommodations, magazines, tertiary safety systems, FTL engines and 95% of all other non-combat equipment essential for operating independent space-faring vessels. That saves a lot of energy and space that can be outfitted with additional ways of inflicting fiery inferno on enemies of our empire
 
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Strike craft, by virtue of being small short-range vessels, don't have to waste space on things like spare life-support, crew accommodations, magazines, tertiary safety systems, FTL engines and 95% of all other non-combat equipment essential for operating independent space-faring vessels. That saves a lot of energy and space that can be outfitted with additional ways of inflicting fiery inferno on enemies of our empire
Exactly how much space and cost is being saved there? Already in the thread I wrote how much is saved from removing the FTL Drive - it's less than the Alloy cost for one more S-slot Tier-3 X-Ray Laser. If it's relative to a Corvette, it's 1/3rd more damage than before - if it's relative to a Cruiser, it's less than 1/12th (it's closer to 1/17th, with the size increase bonuses).

Don't stop there, tell me how much more is saved with the other stuff removed. You're at like 2.39 DPD with the 1/3rd more from above, only 37.61 DPD to go to get back to vanilla!
 

Starfury

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if the machine is unmanned , materials are all that matter , an accelleration of 200000 - 300000 is not exatly unsusteinable by our metals . so , yes, a SC that has such accelleration capacity could dodge your lasers while theyr weapon mount can still manage to track the target. i ... never used the word "impossible" because if you have 500 lasers filling the space inside 9 Km , they may hit the target ( like flack cannons tactics against airplanes) .
Sorry to put it so bluntly, but you really don't understand the underlying physics.

If we assume a ridiculously low weight of 20 tons for the craft (the empty weight of a F-22), your 1 million g acceleration amounts to a force of 200 GN. If you're trying to transfer that force through a 1m^2 surface to the rest of your craft, you've got a compressive strength of 200 GPa. Feel free to look up compressive strengths of some materials as a comparison.

And that's the easy part, we haven't even started talking about shear and other stresses on parts not mounted directly in front of the point of acceleration. Things like your weapon mounts would just snap off under the stress.
 
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your 1 million g acceleration amounts to a force of 200 GN
wut.... from where did you take 1million G accelleration ?

If we assume a ridiculously low weight of 20 tons for the craft (the empty weight of a F-22), your 1 million g acceleration amounts to a force of 200 GN. If you're trying to transfer that force through a 1m^2 surface to the rest of your craft, you've got a compressive strength of 200 GPa. Feel free to look up compressive strengths of some materials as a comparison.

You will have to use actual number there , because you going wild with it doesn't help. my example with 300000 m/s was one that showcased an accelleration not close to light speed , that is relatively close to a bullet speed when fired , that still give you ample movement in that 0.03 seconds of the laser travel .

now, i'm not an expert on phisics , so you are free to give me some formulas and evrything , but 1 Million G is 9800000 m/s , or i'm missing something there ? thats not the accelleration i offered , and the idea that we have to do with ... surface .. confuse me even more , as we are talking about a tridimensional object subject to a force applied to evry atoms and theyr connections .

now , i'm not an expert in materials, but i know a bullet will moslty maintain its form when fired, and thats lead. objectively , i guess it would be quite hard to maintain a processor working under such circumstances, but we have spaceships that travel FTL , if the problem is an accelleration of 200000 m/s , there are ALOT of other problems coming up there.
 

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The first problem is that you're confusing speed and acceleration.
Speed is how fast you're moving (measured in m/s), acceleration is how fast your speed is changing (measured in m/s per second - or m/s^2).

If you want to dodge, you don't have to move fast, you have to change how fast you're moving. If you're trying to change your speed by 300 000 m/s the necessary acceleration depends on how quickly you want to change it. If it's supposed to happen within 0.03s, you need an acceleration of 10 000 000 m/s^2.

To get an object to accelerate at a certain rate, you need to apply a force to it. (Force = mass x acceleration)
That's where the 200 Giganewton come from.

And this is where the material strength comes into play. That engine applying 200 GN to the rear of the craft is comparable to the weight of the Great Pyramid of Giza with 6 Burj Khalifas on top of that (20 million tons in total) pushing into the engine, without crushing your strike craft in the process.
 
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The first problem is that you're confusing speed and acceleration.
Speed is how fast you're moving (measured in m/s), acceleration is how fast your speed is changing (measured in m/s per second - or m/s^2).

If you want to dodge, you don't have to move fast, you have to change how fast you're moving. If you're trying to change your speed by 300 000 m/s the necessary acceleration depends on how quickly you want to change it. If it's supposed to happen within 0.03s, you need an acceleration of 10 000 000 m/s^2.

To get an object to accelerate at a certain rate, you need to apply a force to it. (Force = mass x acceleration)
That's where the 200 Giganewton come from.

And this is where the material strength comes into play. That engine applying 200 GN to the rear of the craft is comparable to the weight of the Great Pyramid of Giza with 6 Burj Khalifas on top of that (20 million tons in total) pushing into the engine, without crushing your strike craft in the process.

no. i use 300000 m/s that will change my position relatively to my initial position by 9 Km in 0.03 seconds. i don't need that accelleration. i always talked about accelleration .... my bad i guess since i should write it as 300000 m/s^2 .


edit: MH. i made a mistake yes, the distance is "only" 135 m . i guess i did made a mistake there .still... 135 m is still a utilizable manouvre to dodge a laser . what the lenght of a f22 ? 20 m? thats 6 times your size in distance after manouvre and the laser arrive.
 
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HFY

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So... are we estimating scale by using visual cues (visually close planets etc.) or by using the speed of light as a limit for combat engagement distance?

There is a conflict between those two, and putting numbers on speed seems premature if we're not codifying the frame of reference.
 

DrFranknfurter

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Exactly how much space and cost is being saved there? Already in the thread I wrote how much is saved from removing the FTL Drive - it's less than the Alloy cost for one more S-slot Tier-3 X-Ray Laser. If it's relative to a Corvette, it's 1/3rd more damage than before - if it's relative to a Cruiser, it's less than 1/12th (it's closer to 1/17th, with the size increase bonuses).

Don't stop there, tell me how much more is saved with the other stuff removed. You're at like 2.39 DPD with the 1/3rd more from above, only 37.61 DPD to go to get back to vanilla!
I think it may be helpful for realism to look at examples of dry ship mass vs useful cargo space vs fuel on actual human spaceships. It isn't obvious how much fuel is needed to move stuff at the really high speeds needed to escape Earth's gravity, but in the real world it's a fairly ridiculous amount of fuel.

For SpaceX's Starship:
2.4% of the total mass is engines and other core components (the Dry mass)
2% of total mass is useful cargo
The other ~95% of the mass of the ship is is fuel

Fuel/weight savings (like refuelling in orbit) are really, really important. With SpaceX's Starship 95% of the mass is fuel, but even then it will need a mothership/tanker to refuel or it won't reach the destination (Mars). So strike craft being able to reduce the mass spent on FTL drives/fuel/etc vs corvettes would mean taking infinitely more useful cargo to the destination (the battle), e.g. SpaceX's Starship can't take any cargo directly from Earth to the Moon or to Mars (In Stellaris terms the corvette can barely reach the battle), but with a mothership/tanker to provide refueling SpaceX's Starship is designed to take 100t of cargo to those same destinations (In Stellaris terms the strike craft can easily reach the same destination with lots of useful mass in weapons and ammo thanks to the mothership).

Refueling from a mothership for humans in the real world means a spaceship can take infinitely more cargo (guns+bullets) to a destination, as it can go places it simply would not have been able to reach if it was trying to carry all the fuel itself.


PERFORMANCE
The Starship and Super Heavy system offers
substantial mass-to-orbit capabilities. At the baseline
reusable design, Starship can deliver over 100 metric
tons to LEO. Utilizing parking orbit refueling, Starship
is able to deliver unprecedented payload mass to a
variety of Earth, cislunar, and interplanetary
trajectories. A summary of available Starship
capabilities is provided in Table 3 below. The single
launch mass-to-orbit assumes no orbital refueling of
Starship. The maximum mass-to-orbit assumes
parking orbit propellant transfer, allowing for a
substantial increase in payload mass. These
performance numbers assume full Starship reuse,
including Super Heavy return to launch site. For
performance estimates to a specific orbit, please
contact sales@spacex.com.

Orbit Mass-to-Orbit Single LaunchMass-to-Orbit Prop Transfer (t)
LEO (1) 100+100+
GTO (2) 21 100+
Lunar Surface N/A100+
Mars SurfaceN/A100+

(1) Up to 500-km circular orbit at up to 98.9-deg inclination
(2) Assumes 185 x 35,786 km orbit at 27-deg inclination with 1800 m/s ΔV to go
Table 3: Expected Starship Performance

And looking up more figures from elsewhere...

So SpaceX's Spaceship:
5000t total mass
3300t Fuel capacity of Super Heavy
1200t Fuel capactiy of Starship
0-100t Payload depending on destination.
85-120t Dry mass of Spaceship

That's 2.4% of the total mass is engines and core components, another 2% of total mass is useful cargo. The other 95% of the mass of the ship is is fuel.

So I would imagine that what looks like relatively modest savings from cutting the weight of FTL Drives (20 alloys) + Fuel and all the other life support stuff would actually allow strike craft to carry orders of magnitude more useful cargo (guns+bullets) to the destination. e.g. instead of 2% of total mass being weapons it's much closer to 100% of total mass of that tiny ship being used for weapons, for up to 50x the DPS of a corvette when a squadron of strikecraft is fighting supported by a mothership/starbase supplying the fuel.

If we're using Stellaris numbers...
Assuming Alloys = Mass
Then 30 alloys for a corvette frame + 90 alloys worth of core components can carry 90 alloys worth of small weapons, 90 alloys of utility slots, 20 alloys of auxilliary components... So roughly 1.2:2 ratio of ship dry mass to useful cargo using endgame technology.
If all of that mass adds up to only 5% of the total mass then I would assume the fuel itself accounts for up to another 6000 units of mass (represented by the energy upkeep of the ship).

So let's say it's around 320 alloys total for a corvette. With ~87 Alloys cost being weapons, or around 1/3 of the total Alloys. But that could still represent only 1.4% of the total mass being weapons, giving ~20 DPS with 3x Small weapons like matter disintegrators.

A single Hangar bay goes up to 88 alloys of strikecraft (the mass of around 3 S-slots) with a DPS equal to around 6 S-slots. That's fairly conservative in my opinion. If cutting fuel is actually freeing up even a small fraction of the 95% of total mass, or 6000 units of space that was being used for fuel that could instead be used to boost weapon output... then it could easily be argued the strikecraft could carry 5-50x the payload of weapons, or equivalent to 15-150 S-Slots. So it's possible that H-slots should realistically have 5-50x the DPS of a corvette... but with an increase in energy upkeep costs to represent the fuel costs for resupplying squadrons of strikecraft...

...But I certainly would not suggest any changes to try to make the game more realistic as it wouldn't be remotely balanced (realistic is rarely fun). Plus you'd need to be a rocket scientist from the future to do the math correctly. But it doesn't need to be realistic for me personally, just for combat to be fun and the numbers to be relatively balanced.
 
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Finestela

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One thing I kept seeing the OP bringing up is the metal cost, which is somehow supposedly representative to actual ship size and what not.

The metal cost is just an arbitrary figure scaled for the sake of balance. It's got nothing to do with actual size of the ship.

If it is somehow realistically proportional to size, are we to believe that less than 2000 corvettes is able to encase an entire star? Or create enough living space that's equal to 4 x size 10 planets plus support structures?

That basic assumption is flawed to begin with, simple as that.
 
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