Realistic Japanese's Aircraft range

[potski]

This is not what I meant. I meant that all tech is equal for every country. Not that every country starts with the same tech, but that 1936 fighter is the same as another nations 1936 fighter, and has been for every HOI game. At least in HOI IV variants should switch it up quite a bit.

But there is no such thing as a "1936 fighter". Instead there will be:

1936 fighter Reliability=0 Weapons=1 Range=3 Engine=2

With another country having:

1936 fighter Reliability=1 Weapons=1 Range=1 Engine=2

The combination of variables will give different air speed, manoeuvrability, air attack and defence. A different plane, not the same plane with a different flavour name.

 

[Opanashc]

But there is no such thing as a "1936 fighter".

If 2 countries research exact same techs, they will end up having identical fighters (or whatever). THAT is the point that was trying to be made.

 

[Daelyn75]

But there is no such thing as a "1936 fighter". Instead there will be:

1936 fighter Reliability=0 Weapons=1 Range=3 Engine=2

With another country having:

1936 fighter Reliability=1 Weapons=1 Range=1 Engine=2

The combination of variables will give different air speed, manoeuvrability, air attack and defence. A different plane, not the same plane with a different flavour name.

My understanding is that those are variants that you are talking about, not the 1936 fighter. Is not the 1936 Fighter 0 in all categories? The improvements are what make the variants.

 

[potski]

If 2 countries research exact same techs, they will end up having identical fighters (or whatever). THAT is the point that was trying to be made.

Yes, if you research the same techs AND use your air combat experience to setup the same variant then you have largely the same spec plane (or even identical if there are no other factors influencing the stats, like Ministers or Tech Teams). But there are at least 256 variants of each type/model/tech level of plane. In 1936 GER and FRA might have identical med. bomber stats, but different fighters. I don't know the historic comparison. But if historians largely agree that the GER fighters were faster and more manoeuvrable than their FRA counterparts, I would expect the devs to reflect that.

My understanding is that those are variants that you are talking about, not the 1936 fighter. Is not the 1936 Fighter 0 in all categories? The improvements are what make the variants.

There is no reason to believe that the devs would give every country 0/0/0/0 on the four variables that give rise to the variants. Why would they do that other than perhaps for minors? If you can reflect the historic difference between UK and GER BB, JAP and ITA CV, USA and SOV light tanks, POL and GER fighters, then you would do that surely?

This is not a game where you have to ensure balance between different countries.

As I said, countries in HOI3 didn't all start with the exact same unit stats. Even if this was to a certain extent artificially achieved by things like the leaders. With no unit leaders in HOI4, then there has to be a way to achieve the advantage that some countries already had in certain areas.

 

[Daelyn75]

But if historians largely agree that the GER fighters were faster and more manoeuvrable than their FRA counterparts, I would expect the devs to reflect that.

There is no reason to believe that the devs would give every country 0/0/0/0 on the four variables that give rise to the variants. Why would they do that other than perhaps for minors? If you can reflect the historic difference between UK and GER BB, JAP and ITA CV, USA and SOV light tanks, POL and GER fighters, then you would do that surely?

This is not a game where you have to ensure balance between different countries.

As I said, countries in HOI3 didn't all start with the exact same unit stats. Even if this was to a certain extent artificially achieved by things like the leaders. With no unit leaders in HOI4, then there has to be a way to achieve the advantage that some countries already had in certain areas.

You need to find and quote where it was said this, otherwise it's just wishful thinking. All techs are the same for all nations. Please show where the dev's have said otherwise. I have read every single dev comment for this game since the forums began.

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

Well, the relevant DD's are DD8: Experience and Variants and DD9: Air Tech.

If we take DD's at their word:

• 1933 is the earliest model.
• The base model depends on tech.
• The number of assignable points depends on experience.

I could see bookmarks starting countries off with pre-defined variants that may differentiate one from another even if they use the same base model.

Though this leaves some open questions:

• Do later models have more assignable points, or just better base stats?
• Are experience points consumed when you make a new variant, or do they determine the number of assignable points you get when making a variant but are not consumed? The former seems closer to the division designer, though the latter makes more sense to me.

 

[potski]

You need to find and quote where it was said this, otherwise it's just wishful thinking. All techs are the same for all nations. Please show where the dev's have said otherwise. I have read every single dev comment for this game since the forums began.

This is not a question about whether 1936-0/0/0/0 planes have the same base stats for all countries. Of course, they will.

What I'm saying is that the devs won't provide JAP (to come back to the original question) with the "default" plane stats (assuming 0/0/0/0 are the default values, they could just as well be 1/1/1/1, to allow movement down as well as up). They will put in the game files that JAP has a variant of fighter with a longer range than other majors, and a carrier capable fighter with an even longer range. They will have the starting wings equipped with planes with longer ranges on 1st Jan 1936.

Hardly wishful thinking, because the devs have not said it explicitly. It would take very little to include in the country and OOB files information about what variants of the 1933, 1936, 1940 and 1944 base airframes will be in use when the game starts. This is particularly important because of the much wider number of years between full airframe upgrade. The only way to show that one country has an advantage in a particular area is in the variants, while HOI3 could give you a 1938 model 2 years early. They won't give a 1940 generic model 1940-0/0/0/0 on 1 Jan 1936 instead IN MY OPINION (does that satisfy you?) the devs will give JAP a better variant of the 1936 model.

And I think an AI controlled JAP will place even more emphasis on developing range to the detriment of reliability over the next few years. And they will have the combat experience to achieve a considerable advantage over most Allied planes in the region.

Of course, I could be wrong and the devs will give US some B17 heavy bombers which are identical in all respects to the 1936 models of other countries which have already researched the heavy airframe. But I doubt it. In the end you are NOT researching the B17, or even a particular 1936 heavy bomber plane, you research the heavy (4 engine) airframe. And I think that to translate that airframe into an actual model you can order your factories to start producing, then you have to apply a variant. It should be free or very cheap to apply the same sort of variant that you had previously developed and built for the earlier model.

 

[Daelyn75]

This is not a question about whether 1936-0/0/0/0 planes have the same base stats for all countries. Of course, they will.

What I'm saying is that the devs won't provide JAP (to come back to the original question) with the "default" plane stats (assuming 0/0/0/0 are the default values, they could just as well be 1/1/1/1, to allow movement down as well as up). They will put in the game files that JAP has a variant of fighter with a longer range than other majors, and a carrier capable fighter with an even longer range. They will have the starting wings equipped with planes with longer ranges on 1st Jan 1936.

Hardly wishful thinking, because the devs have not said it explicitly. It would take very little to include in the country and OOB files information about what variants of the 1933, 1936, 1940 and 1944 base airframes will be in use when the game starts. This is particularly important because of the much wider number of years between full airframe upgrade. The only way to show that one country has an advantage in a particular area is in the variants, while HOI3 could give you a 1938 model 2 years early. They won't give a 1940 generic model 1940-0/0/0/0 on 1 Jan 1936 instead IN MY OPINION (does that satisfy you?) the devs will give JAP a better variant of the 1936 model.

And I think an AI controlled JAP will place even more emphasis on developing range to the detriment of reliability over the next few years. And they will have the combat experience to achieve a considerable advantage over most Allied planes in the region.

Of course, I could be wrong and the devs will give US some B17 heavy bombers which are identical in all respects to the 1936 models of other countries which have already researched the heavy airframe. But I doubt it. In the end you are NOT researching the B17, or even a particular 1936 heavy bomber plane, you research the heavy (4 engine) airframe. And I think that to translate that airframe into an actual model you can order your factories to start producing, then you have to apply a variant. It should be free or very cheap to apply the same sort of variant that you had previously developed and built for the earlier model.

I'm not saying that there won't be an OOB which might very well include some variants, what I am saying is that if you were to research a tech while the game is beyond the starting point, that you won't automatically get something beyond the basic tech. So no researching a 1940 fighter as Japan and automatically you get a Zero, or anything beyond the basic tech stats which is what everyone gets. I believe it was Podcat that said so himself. Everyone gets the same stats to go with the same tech when researched, and it is up to the player to use their experience to create variants of the original tech.

 

[Secret Master]

I believe it was Podcat that said so himself. Everyone gets the same stats to go with the same tech when researched, and it is up to the player to use their experience to create variants of the original tech.

Won't you be able to make your historical Zeros this way?

 

[shri]

Indeed they didn't.

But Japan was at war from mid 37, and, probably should be in the game too. So they will be gaining a wealth of experience that other nations won't.

In one generation of aircraft, the range of their front-line carrier-based fighter tripled. It was double that of the Wildcat and was still double that of the Hellcat when that was introduced.

To reflect this, if a player Japan can change the spec's of his (or her) fighters to create a fast, highly manoeuvrable and extremely long ranged carrier fighter at the expense of armour & weapons and have it scoring a kill ratio of 12:1 in 1940, then I'll be very very happy. Please make the AI do this too. If I'm fighting Japan, I want to be fighting Japan.

An early Japan should be the only nation that's experienced enough to be producing carrier wings that includes escorting fighters.

IMHO

Well, Lets say you have the Zero in late 1940, this means you have a decent plane with extreme long range but low on armaments and without armor,
if as USA you manage to build you airfields (now you have hindsight in 2014 which is the whole flaw with all games), you can have land based aircraft with medium range but excellent armament and decent armor attacking those Zeros in slightly inferior numbers at beginning but in swarms by 1942.
That may still lead to - "marinas Turkey Shoot' situation, or it won't?

 

[shri]

If 2 countries research exact same techs, they will end up having identical fighters (or whatever). THAT is the point that was trying to be made.

That will be stalemate.
In general it won't or should not happen, why?

German and Russian doctrine was to use the air-force as an extended artillery for the tanks and infantry, so you need dive bombers (attack aircraft?), medium bombers and quick interceptors (to defend) and fighters (to clear the airspace), so most aircraft are high on armaments, medium armor but relatively low-medium range.

USA doctrine (partly borrowed from UK) was Strategic Bombardment, you had heavy 4 engine aircraft which were the ancestors of the B-52 but designed with a vision like that.
Heavy Armor, Heavy Armaments, Long Range but still vulnerable to fighters, also USA and UK (as also USSR later) had access to the High Octane (100+) Fuel, which was not available with the Axis, this certainly is a big difference in the 1-2 minute dog fights, a small advantage is the difference between kill and getting killed.

 

[Daelyn75]

Won't you be able to make your historical Zeros this way?

Yes, very much so. I'm just saying that as Japan you don't get it without putting experience into variants. The OP wanted you to just get it without messing around with Variants, and potski seems to think that when you research say the 1940 fighter that there will already be a few points to play around with, or that it just comes with the tech without using XP for creating variants. Both points of view are incorrect. Yeah, it can start out in the 1936 scenario with some nations that there will already be variants for the 1936 fighter, but just researching the tech alone gives you no bonus for your nation in the area that that nation focused on historically.

Example

1936 Fighter (NO VARIANTS) - 4 Attack, 4 Defense, 3 Range
1936 Fighter (Variant example for Japan with range and attack) - 5 Attack, 4 Defense, 5 Range - Experience was used to put a point in attack, and two into range.

1940 Fighter (NO VARIANTS) - 6 Attack, 5 Defense, 4 Range
1940 Fighter (Playing as Japan, creating the Zero) - 7 Attack, 5 Defense, 8 Range - Experience was used to put a point into attack, and 4 into range.

That is how it is as far as I know. The stats are just an example, and in no way reflect anything that is going to be in HOI IV but they show you how it will work.

So to the OP, this is how it works, and to potski this is how it works.

This is not to say that in 1936 or any other scenario that you will not already start out with a variant as per the OOB. I am just saying how research and variants work. There is no 3 points to play around with when you get the 1940 Fighter just by research - based upon what the Devs have stated this is true. However, it doesn't mean that they cannot change this in the future.

 

[Secret Master]

Yes, very much so. I'm just saying that as Japan you don't get it without putting experience into variants.

Ah, yes. And we don't know what the starting OOBs will have in them.

 

[Stenner]

There is no reason to believe that the devs would give every country 0/0/0/0 on the four variables that give rise to the variants. Why would they do that other than perhaps for minors? If you can reflect the historic difference between UK and GER BB, JAP and ITA CV, USA and SOV light tanks, POL and GER fighters, then you would do that surely?

The devs have said this exactly however, that a German 1936 tank will be identical to a British 1936 tank, and that if they tried to give them "historical stats" for base models it would drive them and the players crazy.

(http://youtu.be/hwFvVM_zZxQ?t=5m30s).

 

[Daelyn75]

The devs have said this exactly however, that a German 1936 tank will be identical to a British 1936 tank, and that if they tried to give them "historical stats" for base models it would drive them and the players crazy.

(http://youtu.be/hwFvVM_zZxQ?t=5m30s).

Thank you. I've been trying to say this with how many comments now? I'm not sure why so many are confused!

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

I don't think potski was saying anything different?

 

[Daelyn75]

I don't think potski was saying anything different?

"There is no reason to believe that the devs would give every country 0/0/0/0 on the four variables that give rise to the variants. Why would they do that other than perhaps for minors? If you can reflect the historic difference between UK and GER BB, JAP and ITA CV, USA and SOV light tanks, POL and GER fighters, then you would do that surely?

This is not a game where you have to ensure balance between different countries."

I'm afraid it is a game where balance is ensured between different countries when you have the same tech. Variants are different of course, but he is referring to just researching and then producing baseline tech. So yeah, he was quite off on that.

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

"There is no reason to believe that the devs would give every country 0/0/0/0 on the four variables that give rise to the variants. Why would they do that other than perhaps for minors? If you can reflect the historic difference between UK and GER BB, JAP and ITA CV, USA and SOV light tanks, POL and GER fighters, then you would do that surely?

This is not a game where you have to ensure balance between different countries."

I'm afraid it is a game where balance is ensured between different countries when you have the same tech. Variants are different of course, but he is referring to just researching and then producing baseline tech. So yeah, he was quite off on that.

He is talking about variants, not baseline from tech. He even said so pretty explicitly:

This is not a question about whether 1936-0/0/0/0 planes have the same base stats for all countries. Of course, they will.

 

[Daelyn75]

He is talking about variants, not baseline from tech. He even said so pretty explicitly:

"But there is no such thing as a "1936 fighter". Instead there will be:

1936 fighter Reliability=0 Weapons=1 Range=3 Engine=2

With another country having:

1936 fighter Reliability=1 Weapons=1 Range=1 Engine=2

The combination of variables will give different air speed, manoeuvrability, air attack and defence. A different plane, not the same plane with a different flavour name. "

He has not said so explicitly. He even said right here that there is no such thing as a 1936 fighter, and that the devs would tailor the aircraft to the flavor of the nation that gets the tech. He explicitly states that right here.

My response to that was:

"My understanding is that those are variants that you are talking about, not the 1936 fighter. Is not the 1936 Fighter 0 in all categories? The improvements are what make the variants."

To which he then responded:

"There is no reason to believe that the devs would give every country 0/0/0/0 on the four variables that give rise to the variants. Why would they do that other than perhaps for minors? If you can reflect the historic difference between UK and GER BB, JAP and ITA CV, USA and SOV light tanks, POL and GER fighters, then you would do that surely?

This is not a game where you have to ensure balance between different countries."

Read that again - the four variables that give rise to the variants. He believed that the tech once researched would automatically tailor to that nation.

 

[Evil4Zerggin]

He has not said so explicitly. He even said right here that there is no such thing as a 1936 fighter, and that the devs would tailor the aircraft to the flavor of the nation that gets the tech. He explicitly states that right here.

Tailored using the variant system. Not the base tech.