Realistic Japanese's Aircraft range

[Ruthlesssamuria]

In HOI 3 you could not send fighters zero's as escort nor even send bombers from Formosa/Taiwan to Bomb Clark field. Yet that is what the Japanese's were able to do on 12/08/1941 Remember War started on Japan's side of international date line on 12/08/1941. I want that fixed in new game!
Sadly they won't fix map in Artic or Antarctic regions to allow for shorter distance to fly over the poles. German FW 200 Condor could fly as far west
as Greenland but in HOI 3 you can't get anywhere close to Greenland.

 

[Opanashc]

Range of combat planes does not equal the maximum distance they can fly. It does not even equal half of it. Fighters must have fuel to actually perform aerial combat maneuvers, and that burns fuel like crazy. In fact, maximum possible range of fighter aircraft in WW2 was 1/3 the maximum distance they could travel on a tank of fuel, or even less.

 

[Denkt]

As you fight battles with aircrafts you will gain air experience.
Instead of having a single choice of each type of aircraft like in HOI3 you will be able to create variants of each type of aircrafts who aren't multi exclusive so you can have the ability to build 5 types of interceptor class aircraft each with different attributes.

Each variant got 4 fields which makes the differences between them, range/weapon/reability/engine.
You can spend Air experience on improving these fields so if you want to you can create a very long ranged fighter by spending points in that area however then you will have less experience spent in other fields.
This mean that Japans/Germanys and US fighter at the same tech level may be extreamly different.

You can read about variants and other things in the dev diarys.

 

[Big Nev]

For Japan, in particular.

Flying boats.

H6K - 4-engined "bomber" available by mid 1936 (so... already in the construction queue at game start?) range 6½ thousand Km. Could fly over large portions of Australia from bases in the DEI. Also capable of 24 hour reconnaissance patrols or delivering supplies/troops, dropping paratroops.

This aircraft could fly from Tokyo to drop para's on Guam and then return for more.

H8K - similar 4-engined "bomber" being built in 1941. Range 7 thousand Km+ and includes variants with heavy armament, transport, air-to-sea RADAR.

 

[Gratch11]

I feel that aircraft has to long range, maybee not heavy bombers and transports, but the rest

 

[Axe99]

As you fight battles with aircrafts you will gain air experience.
Instead of having a single choice of each type of aircraft like in HOI3 you will be able to create variants of each type of aircrafts who aren't multi exclusive so you can have the ability to build 5 types of interceptor class aircraft each with different attributes.

Each variant got 4 fields which makes the differences between them, range/weapon/reability/engine.
You can spend Air experience on improving these fields so if you want to you can create a very long ranged fighter by spending points in that area however then you will have less experience spent in other fields.
This mean that Japans/Germanys and US fighter at the same tech level may be extreamly different.

You can read about variants and other things in the dev diarys.

Aye, the variant system is likely the best way to address this, as while the Japanese had their ultra-long-range zeroes, they also had army fighters that were much more 'normal' in range, but also more heavily armoured - so the Zero (A6M) could be a high-range, relatively low-speed fighter, relatively low reliability (best proxy for armour?), while the Ki-61 might be a lower range, higher weapon and reliability machine. The question is whether you can push variants enough for monsters like the H6K/H8K (which, IIRC, were flying boats to boot) or for the extreme range of the Zero.

 

[Dark Jakkaru]

For Japan, in particular.

Flying boats.

H6K - 4-engined "bomber" available by mid 1936 (so... already in the construction queue at game start?) range 6½ thousand Km. Could fly over large portions of Australia from bases in the DEI. Also capable of 24 hour reconnaissance patrols or delivering supplies/troops, dropping paratroops.

This aircraft could fly from Tokyo to drop para's on Guam and then return for more.

H8K - similar 4-engined "bomber" being built in 1941. Range 7 thousand Km+ and includes variants with heavy armament, transport, air-to-sea RADAR.

I like this suggestion! We could use these types of craft as they were technically very useful just like the Catalina was in certain cases.

 

[Ruthlesssamuria]

Your all missing my major point! I want the planes to have the range they had historically and not be required to research their fuel tanks/range to get the range
they started with in Real Life! After that yes you could research different variants. But the basic variant should have the range they actually started with in real life! Also Japanese's Zero's had drop tanks so it should not be required to research it for them and so did many aircraft of many nations to begin with so you should not have to research it for them. Germans put drop tanks on ME109 E's
in last part of Battle of Britain in 1940. Research for drop tanks should only be required for those planes not designed with drop
tanks in mind at 1st.

 

[Daelyn75]

Your all missing my major point! I want the planes to have the range they had historically and not be required to research their fuel tanks/range to get the range
they started with in Real Life! After that yes you could research different variants. But the basic variant should have the range they actually started with in real life! Also Japanese's Zero's had drop tanks so it should not be required to research it for them and so did many aircraft of many nations to begin with so you should not have to research it for them. Germans put drop tanks on ME109 E's
in last part of Battle of Britain in 1940. Research for drop tanks should only be required for those planes not designed with drop
tanks in mind at 1st.

PDS makes the HOI games with everything being equal at the start. Through tech you could improve upon them, but other than that no. You still can get your long ranged fighter, you just need to accrue enough air experience to do so.

 

[Opanashc]

Your all missing my major point! I want the planes to have the range they had historically and not be required to research their fuel tanks/range to get the range
they started with in Real Life! After that yes you could research different variants. But the basic variant should have the range they actually started with in real life! Also Japanese's Zero's had drop tanks so it should not be required to research it for them and so did many aircraft of many nations to begin with so you should not have to research it for them. Germans put drop tanks on ME109 E's

So planes that did have drop-tanks on them originally - had them appear out of thin air, and nobody put any thought into how to make drop-tanks for them?

 

[Daelyn75]

So planes that did have drop-tanks on them originally - had them appear out of thin air, and nobody put any thought into how to make drop-tanks for them?

Yeah . . I was thinking something similar as I commented above.

In HOI IV - they are giving us the ability to tailor our aircraft to the way we want them. I'd rather craft my own long range zero fighter than just get the ability to manufacture it. Perhaps I could make it even better this way. Regardless, it still feels like you've earned it and it's more of your personal accomplishment than just having it handed to you. Why would you want it any other way?

 

[Axe99]

Your all missing my major point! I want the planes to have the range they had historically and not be required to research their fuel tanks/range to get the range
they started with in Real Life! After that yes you could research different variants. But the basic variant should have the range they actually started with in real life! Also Japanese's Zero's had drop tanks so it should not be required to research it for them and so did many aircraft of many nations to begin with so you should not have to research it for them. Germans put drop tanks on ME109 E's
in last part of Battle of Britain in 1940. Research for drop tanks should only be required for those planes not designed with drop
tanks in mind at 1st.

I see what you mean (sorry to be slow), in terms of instead of everyone designing the same fighter initially then variant-ing (varying?) off into their own specific needs, you could add in a process that gives some customisation over your initial design as well. I can see the appeal (Vonboe put together a proposal for tanks in http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...our-own-tank-designer&highlight=tank+designer that has a lot of potential) but I suspect if we haven't even had it hinted at yet, it's not a feature that'd make the base game (and balancing it and the variant system together would likely add another layer of beta balancing work). At the least, the variant system takes us a good degree further towards having unique equipment for different countries than any previous HoI, and provides a solid base for moving forward.

 

[Liquid Sky]

In real life the Japanese didn't have zeros in 1936. They had to research them.

 

[Big Nev]

Indeed they didn't.

But Japan was at war from mid 37, and, probably should be in the game too. So they will be gaining a wealth of experience that other nations won't.

In one generation of aircraft, the range of their front-line carrier-based fighter tripled. It was double that of the Wildcat and was still double that of the Hellcat when that was introduced.

To reflect this, if a player Japan can change the spec's of his (or her) fighters to create a fast, highly manoeuvrable and extremely long ranged carrier fighter at the expense of armour & weapons and have it scoring a kill ratio of 12:1 in 1940, then I'll be very very happy. Please make the AI do this too. If I'm fighting Japan, I want to be fighting Japan.

An early Japan should be the only nation that's experienced enough to be producing carrier wings that includes escorting fighters.

IMHO

 

[Daelyn75]

In one generation of aircraft, the range of their front-line carrier-based fighter tripled. It was double that of the Wildcat and was still double that of the Hellcat when that was introduced.

To reflect this, if a player Japan can change the spec's of his (or her) fighters to create a fast, highly manoeuvrable and extremely long ranged carrier fighter at the expense of armour & weapons and have it scoring a kill ratio of 12:1 in 1940, then I'll be very very happy. Please make the AI do this too. If I'm fighting Japan, I want to be fighting Japan.

An early Japan should be the only nation that's experienced enough to be producing carrier wings that includes escorting fighters.

IMHO

Please keep in mind that this was the A6M2 version. It was light, highly maneuverable, and could climb better than anything of it's time. It's shortcomings were that it was of just average speed 316 MPH/509 KPH, fragile - especially when hit in the under-tank, and had relatively light armament - 60 rounds of 20mm and two machine guns.

After taking heavy losses in 1943, the Japanese devised a heavier engine with non-foldable wings as the A6M5. It was faster at 354 MPH/570 KPH, but lost a lot of the range of the A6M2 - 1940 miles/3110 km to 1200 miles/1920km which wasn't anymore than the American naval fighters at the time - the F6F having 1090 miles/1755 km on internal fuel. Armament was increased in the b,c and later versions. It came out late in 1943, but was still outclassed by the Hellcat and the Corsair.

The A6M5 was the most produced in far greater numbers than any other Japanese combat aircraft.

 

[potski]

PDS makes the HOI games with everything being equal at the start. Through tech you could improve upon them, but other than that no. You still can get your long ranged fighter, you just need to accrue enough air experience to do so.

Not really true. The country files contained information about starting techs, so not only was it possible for one country to start with different base tech (1938 model instead of 1936 say) then other techs could already be researched. Plus the OOB files could set techs for individual units. So you could have a country with 1936 fighters, another with 1936 and drop tanks, another with 1938 researched but all of the units still have 1936 planes and need to be upgraded, and another with 1938 planes already in the OOBs.

I'm going to be surprised if HOI4 doesn't allow the different variants of planes to be set in the country files, and that will be done at least for each major. I don't believe every country will have the same 1936 model in 1936. If IRL Japan already started with an advantage in range of it's fighters I would expect that to be reflected. I would also expect that Japan would start with carrier capable models already researched for instance.

We can also expect to see an AI that is more likely to use its combat experience in creating longer ranged variants than other countries.

It doesn't make sense to me that if you put alot of effort and combat experience into extending the range of your 1936 fighters, that you then complete the 1938 fighter tech, and that puts you back to the same range as every other country who research 1938 fighters around the same time. The experience points expended in developing long range 1936 fighters should carry over in some way, so your 1938 fighters also start with longer range.

This should allow us not to research drop tanks fitted to an existing plane to extend it's range. But that the plane was originally built with long range in mind.

With at least 256 variants of each base model of plane, and six types of 1936 single engined planes, then the scope for modelling the real life differences between the air forces of each country, is enormous. So I'm not clear why anyone would claim everyone gets the same base planes. It wasn't even the case in HOI3.

There will be countries who don't have dive bombers, countries with dive bombers on land only, and countries with carrier capable dive bombers. And I don't expect GER dive bombers to be identical stats to JAP dive bombers at any point in the game, even on 1 Jan 1936. So it is not just a flavour thing that they have historical names, they will be different planes.

 

[Daelyn75]

Not really true. The country files contained information about starting techs, so not only was it possible for one country to start with different base tech (1938 model instead of 1936 say) then other techs could already be researched.

This is not what I meant. I meant that all tech is equal for every country. Not that every country starts with the same tech, but that 1936 fighter is the same as another nations 1936 fighter, and has been for every HOI game. At least in HOI IV variants should switch it up quite a bit.

 

[Secret Master]

Your all missing my major point! I want the planes to have the range they had historically and not be required to research their fuel tanks/range to get the range
they started with in Real Life! After that yes you could research different variants.

I'm not sure all vehicles of a certain class in a certain year are the same anyway. Has it been confirmed that all equipment, of the same year and class, has the same stats?

That being said, I can't help but think that with the variant system in place, it will be up to the player to implement historical aircraft with historical stats. For example, the Betty had great range, but had little armor and no self-sealing fuel tanks. So, you got your range with the historical Betty, but also some drawbacks. Wouldn't the thing to do in the game be design a Betty with good range and crap everything else?

 

[Daelyn75]

I'm not sure all vehicles of a certain class in a certain year are the same anyway. Has it been confirmed that all equipment, of the same year and class, has the same stats?

That being said, I can't help but think that with the variant system in place, it will be up to the player to implement historical aircraft with historical stats. For example, the Betty had great range, but had little armor and no self-sealing fuel tanks. So, you got your range with the historical Betty, but also some drawbacks. Wouldn't the thing to do in the game be design a Betty with good range and crap everything else?

I believe that one of the devs confirmed that they will be doing what they've always done with tech - that it will give the same stats to every country.

Personally, I believe that for the perfect technology and equipment - they should include the companies that built and researched everything. You ask for a certain fighter or tank or whatever that meets the requirements you put forth, and those companies that can, will attempt to research and construct a working prototype. When the various companies finish by the deadline, you'll get to choose among the various new fighters. You'll be presented with the stats, both good and drawbacks about it and you can go from there. I don't think everything should be perfect, at least in the first half of the war since there were many aircraft that could be improved upon. This doesn't mean that future variants cannot come into play that improve on it.

What you could get is many aircraft that were more or less historical at the start and then expand from that. It's a different way of approaching technology, but it's also much more realistic in that that was how it actually worked when asking your military industries to produce something new and better for you.

 

[potski]

I'm not sure all vehicles of a certain class in a certain year are the same anyway. Has it been confirmed that all equipment, of the same year and class, has the same stats?

That being said, I can't help but think that with the variant system in place, it will be up to the player to implement historical aircraft with historical stats. For example, the Betty had great range, but had little armor and no self-sealing fuel tanks. So, you got your range with the historical Betty, but also some drawbacks. Wouldn't the thing to do in the game be design a Betty with good range and crap everything else?

Yes, I think it is quite clear that the variant system is not a simple upgrade system. That increasing one area will have negative effects in others. You can increase range of the same air frame/engine by reducing bomb load or defensive armaments, or reducing armour protection, as well as increasing the size of fuel tanks. The variants can be attained by reducing some of four variables, as well as increasing them. This can clearly be seen in the screenshots where there are two buttons next to the variables - plus and minus. Except where the variable is already set to zero. See in this screenshot:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?800670-Hearts-of-Iron-IV-Developer-Diary-9-Vacation-and-Air-tech

And similarly in the DD on naval variants:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=113009&d=1407508757

Though the devs do refer to "upgrade" with the inference that variables only ever increase, when the UI clearly allows you also to reduce some variables, for instance Armor. I would expect doing that would reduce the defensive stats of the ship if it is hit, but allow it to move faster and have a longer range. So you might opt to do that if you always provide alot of protection for fleet carriers, and are happy to take the risk of lowering the armor rating.