Real-world relation to HoI4 divisions?

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phantomrider

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I kind of agree; the Panzergrenadier units seemed to integrated at a pretty low level (battalion or brigade)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergrenadier#World_War_II_usage

The US army integrates its armoured brigades at the battalion level on the modern battlefield. Does anyone know what the basic operational unit was in WWII? Because it seems like a whole brigade (or several of them) with no support infantry wouldn't be able to punch holes in the enemy line on a tactical without risking destruction by highly-entrenched enemy inf. So they would then need to go up to the divisional commander (radio, or slow messengers if they arent equipped with sending radios) and ask for some infantry from the pure inf brigades to be brought up as a detachment. Seems like a brigade commander would want some of his own grunts to boss around at all times to keeping up with his tanks for duties like this.

Basically, it just seems like the smaller the basic unit of maneuver (brigade instead of division), the down the combination of arms at a tactical level which would give you an advantage, no?

Pretty much everyone eventually in WWII and since have developed "systems" to get tanks and infantry to fight together (i.e. infantry to accompany the tanks) as well as to coordinate in someway with artillery. Whether that is assigning them to the same brigade (current US Army mode of having 1 or 2 battalions of tanks with 1 or 2 battalions of armored infantry (total battalions = 3) in each brigade or by regularly "attaching" infantry or tanks to each other for operations. In the game (HOI4) it may not matter since the basic maneuver unit is a division. What would matter is that the game reward "appropriately constituted divisions" and punish those that are not. In HOI3 reward was done via the combined arms bonus but I don't think there was much punishment for divisions that were all armor for example or armor plus armored cars and mobile artillery. WWII and modern warfare is "combined arms" fighting and hopefully the game will reflect that.
 
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Brucesim2003

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The book OOB for an American armoured division during the war didn't have brigades, but it did have combat commands. These were (in theory) brigade level commands that could command ad-hoc task forces. In practice the subordinate battalions tended to stay in the same combat commands, thus creating de-facto brigades. Those brigades were, of course, combined arms, so the argument there is also in favour of allowing tank and infantry in the same brigade.
 
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rutger9

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Either as a support battalion of tank destroyers, or if you can specify adding tank destroyers to an anti tank battalion it could be inside an infantry regiment.
Otherwise it would have to be in a seperate regiment specified for armored units yeah.
 

jalapen0

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Perhaps mixing infantry and tanks in the same brigade would be nice for flavor but I'm thinking that don't allow it just to keep things clean. For the game, since it's division level, it doesn't really matter. The infantry brigade will fight along with the tank brigade anyways. No need for a tank commander to call around asking for help from the infantry. Although, that might be a cool simulation to add to combat as a reason to mix types. Tanks have to sit and wait until the infrantry brigade gets into position. If you had infantry regiments mixed with the tanks, they are already in position but might be weaker than a brigade. But then combat would be at a regiment level, not division. I dunno, thinking out loud.
 
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Dessertspoon

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A possible way to bring back combined arms bonus at some stage would be integrated brigades - the little graphic that calculated it in HoI 3 after the expansions was great, and this time you could 'stack' CA bonuses at the divisional level through multiple combined arms brigade combat teams
 
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Mitsugi

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I kind of agree; the Panzergrenadier units seemed to integrated at a pretty low level (battalion or brigade)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergrenadier#World_War_II_usage

The US army integrates its armoured brigades at the battalion level on the modern battlefield. Does anyone know what the basic operational unit was in WWII? Because it seems like a whole brigade (or several of them) with no support infantry wouldn't be able to punch holes in the enemy line on a tactical without risking destruction by highly-entrenched enemy inf. So they would then need to go up to the divisional commander (radio, or slow messengers if they arent equipped with sending radios) and ask for some infantry from the pure inf brigades to be brought up as a detachment. Seems like a brigade commander would want some of his own grunts to boss around at all times to keeping up with his tanks for duties like this.

Basically, it just seems like the smaller the basic unit of maneuver (brigade instead of division), the down the combination of arms at a tactical level which would give you an advantage, no?

The further down units are integrated, the better performance you get from experience working together, but the less flexible the units are. It doesn't matter for the game because the division is the smallest separate unit.

Note that those panzergrenadier divisions comprised two panzergrenadier regiments (each three battalions), an artillery regiment (3 battalions), plus an armored battalion (probably StuGs) and a panzerjaeger battalion (probably Marders). Plus other supporting arms, recon, engineers, etc. That doesn't mean that in combat they lined up by battalion with six mech battalions all in a line with two TD battalions lined up next to them. It just meant that a battalion commander nominally was in charge of a one-branch force, and they formed combined arms units at battalion level by shuffling their components around.

So Col. Abrams was the CO of the 37th Tank Battalion of the 4th Armored Division. Let's say it's August 44, which means the 37th is in Combat Command A along with the 53rd Armored Infantry Battalion (plus an SP-arty battalion and companies of engineers, AA, TDs, recon, etc.). Theoretically, he's got four tank companies under him, in practice what happened was that his tactical command was "Task Force Abrams" with, say, 3 tank companies and 1 armored infantry company from the 53rd, with the 53rd's commander forming Task Force Jacques with the remaining 2 armored infantry companies and the 37th's other tank company. CCA as a whole might get bulked up by more units, which in turn would make for larger and/or more task forces. For example, in late September, CCA had three task forces and had roughly doubled in size because it was the focus of the Battle of Arracourt and the division commander had reinforced it.

It's not about whether a regiment/brigade is mixed in the TO&E, they pretty much invariably weren't. It's whether the division formed the necessary combined arms teams for use in combat.
 
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uther4117

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I don't know have any of you here playing BICE. It's the most comprehensive and still decolonization mod for hoi3..

The way they implemented the CA bonus and division structures is absolutely ingenious...

Hoi 4 should learn from it or at least hoi4 needs a BICE for people who don't want a ww2 experience in an afternoon but rather spend weeks to finish a campaign full of epicness , immersion and stories in it..
 
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rutger9

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Finishing a game in a single afternoon seems pretty damn improbable if you want to achieve anything decent in it.
Now the current division designer is imo more comprehensive then that of BICE but that is because of the simple fact that HOI3's system wasn't made for the kind of depth that 4 is going for in that respect.
Finding some way to add a combined arms bonus would be good in the long run though, it should be noted that the CA bonus was something that HOI3 had, it was not something BICE added, it improved upon the existing structure but that's something else.
Never got the immersion claim for BICE anyways, its an absolutely amazing mod and I've played it to death but its not immersive, atleast for me HOI4 is seeming theoretically more immersive (especially when you look at the potential of the HOI4 dev cycle post release).
 
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phantomrider

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Finishing a game in a single afternoon seems pretty damn improbable if you want to achieve anything decent in it.
Now the current division designer is imo more comprehensive then that of BICE but that is because of the simple fact that HOI3's system wasn't made for the kind of depth that 4 is going for in that respect.
Finding some way to add a combined arms bonus would be good in the long run though, it should be noted that the CA bonus was something that HOI3 had, it was not something BICE added, it improved upon the existing structure but that's something else.
Never got the immersion claim for BICE anyways, its an absolutely amazing mod and I've played it to death but its not immersive, atleast for me HOI4 is seeming theoretically more immersive (especially when you look at the potential of the HOI4 dev cycle post release).

Actually I play the DWI/DDH mod of HOI3 and I think it is about as historically accurate as you can get in terms of division composition. Great for immersion as well. Hopefully HOI4 will get close both in terms of accuracy but also in terms of reward and punishment (i.e. combat effectiveness) of the various permutations that are possible.
 

rutger9

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DWI gets extremely close I agree (although it fails to represent the non war related business as well as BICE IMO), but that is partly because it goes through the extra steps of adding a seperate regiment per tank type etc which is a good thing in HOI3, but not needed anymore in 4.
Also I've been thinking wouldn't it be interesting if there was maybe some form of issue related to having too many different kinds of equipment and battalions in a single division, IRL it often led to issues in supply and coordination because of the large variety of assets under one command structure, maybe as a DLC thing that expands on supply as a whole.
 

phantomrider

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DWI gets extremely close I agree (although it fails to represent the non war related business as well as BICE IMO), but that is partly because it goes through the extra steps of adding a seperate regiment per tank type etc which is a good thing in HOI3, but not needed anymore in 4.
Also I've been thinking wouldn't it be interesting if there was maybe some form of issue related to having too many different kinds of equipment and battalions in a single division, IRL it often led to issues in supply and coordination because of the large variety of assets under one command structure, maybe as a DLC thing that expands on supply as a whole.

I think most militaries around the world would agree with you that having "too many" different types of equipment that do the same thing can create a logistics "nightmare" because the bullets, spare parts fuel (gas vs diesel) are all different and a gun without the right bullets may at best be a good club (unless there is noone big enough to pick it up) but a truck without some spare parts or the wrong type of fuel is at best a shelter from the rain. It is a lot easier to keep one model of tank running in a division or battalion than 2 or 3 types for example or ammo on hand for 1 or 2 types of guns rather than 5 to 10 types. In theory, you could simulate a complex logistics system as part of the game (although many/most would not find this too much fun) or you could simulate a lower "mission readiness rate" due to maintenance or supply problems which in turn would effect the combat power of the unit (reduce it) from its theoretical "best" if everything the division had was in tip top shape with all the ammo and fuel needed etc.
 
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