Ready, but worried.

[Rommel41]

Let me start off by saying that I love the game as advertised and plan on purchasing it as soon as it's available. However...

I'm still concerned over the amount of on-map clutter. The max level of zoom in its current incarnation is very...busy. And sadly, my years of table-top gaming and PC grand-strategy games from The Art of War to all 3 prior Hearts of Iron have left me with a firm understanding of how to manipulate armies when represented by only unit-cards. The many representations of forces by animated-characters continues to cause me to grimace when in the middle of a campaign.

I hate to say it, but I probably won't zoom in very often. Especially since I did that to get more information in past games. Now it's too messy. Perhaps after a few dozen rounds I'll begrudgingly adapt. It's still ugly to me.

I'd rather be pushing wooden blocks around a 10'x20' table-map, personally.

I know that the game is set. This design is chosen. There won't be any changes.

As such. I turn the responsibility of restoring coherent and immersing unit-cards to the competent modders amongst us. Though I suspect this will be infinitely harder as the core-design has forced the former-sprites as an integral part. I have faith. Help us who want organisation without eye-candy!

 

[Maizel]

They toned down the amount of planes appearing on the map, and I;d be surprised of there wasn't going to be some kind of toggle.

Toggling on NATO symbols will most likely solve all those problems as well.

 

[Rommel41]

From what I understand, the models are permanent. Those are my biggest issues. I feel like I'm playing Axis & Allies. I'm playing this scale and expect not to see soldiers and tanks. Even planes and ships are pushing it.

And since I see models clipping through land-mass, I feel a solid unit-card could still work.

 

[potski]

They toned down the amount of planes appearing on the map, and I;d be surprised of there wasn't going to be some kind of toggle.

Toggling on NATO symbols will most likely solve all those problems as well.

Using NATO symbols doesn't make any difference to the 3D models. There is no toggle to disable them either.

I turn the responsibility of restoring coherent and immersing unit-cards to the competent modders amongst us. Though I suspect this will be infinitely harder as the core-design has forced the former-sprites as an integral part. I have faith. Help us who want organisation without eye-candy!

podcat confirmed a long time ago that it would be relatively easy for a modder to create a non-visible 3D model, so it would leave only the tiles visible.

 

[Beagá]

They really should make map modding easier so that someone can do a less fragmented map ASAP.

Putting NATO counters wont´s solve issues like millions of little battles and dogfights happening every hour. The plane swarms are a DIRECT consequence of choosing one map style. One where units HAVE to be spread into tiny little units.

I do hope they don´t do it for Victoria 3 or Rome 2. Personally I hate EU4 current map too.

 

[Rommel41]

podcat confirmed a long time ago that it would be relatively easy for a modder to create a non-visible 3D model, so it would leave only the tiles visible.

That's an official response on-par with how they dealt with all the complaints about supply in HoI3. They created a mode that simply disabled supply transit.

Simply removing a model doesn't "fix" anything. It simply removes a part of the game.

Now, if they add the ability to replace the model with cards that convey the same information, then I'll be satisfied. And I don't mean a hovering info-box. I mean a physical representation to replace the models and remove/reduce the merging info-boxes.

 

[potski]

The model can convey important information to the player, and in the latest WWW you see that they have added more animations to display which units are attacking and retreating. And they think that many people like the models with national uniforms, the tanks, ships and planes. The planes and capital ships are kinda awesome really, and I never thought I would say that.

However, over the course of development much more information has been added to both the list of units in an Army and the unit tiles. Plus you only need to zoom out slightly from the close-in view and the models disappear. There are over 50 levels of zoom, the models can only be seen in three of them. You can easily play the game without ever seeing the models.

 

[Had a dad]

Now, if they add the ability to replace the model with cards that convey the same information, then I'll be satisfied. And I don't mean a hovering info-box. I mean a physical representation to replace the models and remove/reduce the merging info-boxes.

Instead of worrying just wait till it's released, see what mods will be on release day up to T + 7 and if there isn't anything that suits you, then come back. Worrying / having concern about something you have no control over is pointless.

Either the sky's gonna fall, or it isn't and nothing is going to change between today and June 6th with the whole "counter" issue.

 

[Had a dad]

There are over 50 levels of zoom, the models can only be seen in three of them.

must have missed the DD that covered this.

 

[LordOfWar16]

I really dont get why people complain about that. If you want to play with nato counters, you can. If you want to play without the 3d models simply zoom out slightly and they will fade away. That is where most people will play the game anyway.

The 3d models actually show informations how the battle is going. They may duck if the assault isnt going that well or do an full on charge if it is going well.

 

[Rommel41]

I really dont get why people complain about that. If you want to play with nato counters, you can. If you want to play without the 3d models simply zoom out slightly and they will fade away. That is where most people will play the game anyway.

The 3d models actually show informations how the battle is going. They may duck if the assault isnt going that well or do an full on charge if it is going well.

The reliability of how all this information is easily conveyed by the growing number of model animations is debatable. I don't know how it's better than the battle-balloons and battle-cards when you select in-combat divisions.

The "solutions" offered are a form of people saying "deal with it". I will. But if you don't speak-up about the things you see as an issue, then nothing will change. I don't like it. The "reasoning" behind it I find poor at best and insulting at worst.

I won't lose sleep over it because I will either have a mod that fixes it or a future title that will do it right. If you are offended that I don't think the models are more informative, I'm sorry. But, being as you have it the way you want, maybe you could simply ignore me. I'm not upset because "NATO" symbols aren't used. I'm upset because people are telling me how much "better" the models are at conveying information than a non-animated card. Being as Dad said, we'll have to wait and see when it's released. The videos I've seen are telling to me.

 

[agentgb]

HOI3 i always turned off the sprites for MP games, leave them on for SP games for the close down enjoyment, they have left us the option of NATO counters, and i'm sure modders can fix or alter the zoom level to make it more to your preference? perhaps finding that goldilocks point within the zoom level, as for the clutter, i haven't a problem with it, seems not much different to hoi3 imo, only that you can managed armies with alot more ease.

 

[Zaku]

I always turned off the models in HOI3, but they actually look good in HOI4 so I will be using them. I will also use NATO symbols because they look wargame-y. Its the best of both worlds.

 

[Number 7]

luckily this is an issue that at its absolute worst will be solved by mods, and at its best is a non issue. It's not like, a fundamental unfixable issue with the game. if you really don't like the models i am very very sure that they will be modded out for permanently only having counters at any zoom level within a week.

paradox have claimed its their most moddable game yet, so super excited to see what people come up with

 

[Modestus]

I suppose its worth noting that without the Model unlike in HOI III movement direction is not shown so while you can see if a Division is actually moving, charging or even being strategically redeployed you cannot see in what direction which is great news for the General.


Of course the main reason for this is because a Counter in HOI IV is not really a unit but an indication of what units are in a Province which effectively means you cannot attach a directional arrow to a HOI IV Type Counter.


Fun fact 1\ If you have 2 Divisions of the same type in the same province and both are moving in two different directions and you cannot see the model then you wont have a clue in what direction they are moving let alone that they are moving in two different directions.


Fun fact 2\ Enemy Counters not only dont show direction as above but they also dont show if a unit is moving.


Bottom line remove the Model and you will create your own personal fog of war which I suppose some people may find a challenge.

 

[Rommel41]

I suppose its worth noting that without the Model unlike in HOI III movement direction is not shown so while you can see if a Division is actually moving, charging or even being strategically redeployed you cannot see in what direction which is great news for the General.


Of course the main reason for this is because a Counter in HOI IV is not really a unit but an indication of what units are in a Province which effectively means you cannot attach a directional arrow to a HOI IV Type Counter.


Fun fact 1\ If you have 2 Divisions of the same type in the same province and both are moving in two different directions and you cannot see the model then you wont have a clue in what direction they are moving let alone that they are moving in two different directions.


Fun fact 2\ Enemy Counters not only dont show direction as above but they also dont show if a unit is moving.


Bottom line remove the Model and you will create your own personal fog of war which I suppose some people may find a challenge.

But unit cards in HoI 3 had small green arrows determining which direction the unit is moving. I can tell when an enemy is moving also, by positioning of the cards. If you don't have troops to oppose an enemy, you don't know where the enemy is going until it arrives. That's fair.

 

[Modestus]

But unit cards in HoI 3 had small green arrows determining which direction the unit is moving. I can tell when an enemy is moving also, by positioning of the cards. If you don't have troops to oppose an enemy, you don't know where the enemy is going until it arrives. That's fair.

In HOI IV similar to HOI III combat starts at a province border so if an enemy division is moving towards your province regardless if you have troops stationed there or not you would be well aware of the direction of its movement. Of course at some point you should have no indication in what direction an enemy unit is moving but that will be taken care of by the fog of war.


Anyhow what I am saying is that if you take away the model in HOI IV you will then have no indication in what direction your own unit is moving let alone the enemy and the idea that you can simply remove or turn off the models and hey presto you have something akin to an HOI III unit counter is false.


In HOI IV you really need both the model (unit) and the province display counter to tell you what is happening a method of representing units that as far as I can tell comes from EUIV and CK II but unfortunately for some strange reason Paradox thought it would also be a good idea for HOI IV.


And the reason I say unfortunately is because while the combination of a model and a display counter gives you a lot of useful information about the meanderings of a few Ottoman armies it becomes problematic when your dealing with the movement of hundreds of Divisions who in most cases will be performing actions independent of direct instructions from the player through the use of Battle Plans.


I think I agree with Angry Joe and say that war is chaos and war in HOI IV will take that to a new level.