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unmerged(150125)

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And here’s ideas on how non-military NIs have changed in HTTT. The post on military NIs is here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=450519


National Bank: What used to be a must-have 1st or 2nd NI for many players, I think is pretty useless now. It’s easy to just hire some Masters of Mints. And in my experience, there’s only certain parts of the game where I mint a lot, so having the -.10 inflation all the time isn’t very useful when you can hire advisors for a quick, momentary reduction.

Bill of Rights: I love this NI now, though it may only be useful for certain types of play. The lowering of revolt risk isn’t much since there’s lots of new ways to do that. Even having another CB is of questionable value with all the CBs you can get now. But it’s a pretty sweet CB. 300% prestige (!) and 50% cost for liberating a country, releasing a vassal, or reducing SoI. If you have a big rival you need to beat down, but can’t hold on to any land of theirs you take, using this CB to slice them up and take away their vassals is ideal. I have in mind a fun game where I’ll play as England, conquer enough land to have one of the largest armies, and then play World Police. Any time a country annexes another, Great Britain swoops into the rescue – and then uses the resulting prestige to expand my SoI to all those needing protecting.

Bureaucracy: Could just hire a sheriff advisor now. And how on earth does taking the province decision “Expand the bureaucracy” give you more magistrates, but the NI called Bureaucracy doesn’t???

The Trade NIs (Merchant Adventurers, Shrewd Commerce Practice, National Trade Policy): Trade has changed a lot with trade leagues and exclusive trading rights. I haven’t figured out how all these things have impacted countries not leading a trade league yet. Obviously Merchant Republics (or those wanting to become one) would find all these more useful. One thing I’ve noticed is that when you’re in a trade league, it’s a whole lot harder to place your merchants. If you’re in the Hanseatic League, there may be 20 countries that your merchant can’t compete with to earn a place in a COT. So if you’re part of a League, I think SCP would be even more helpful in elbowing your way into COTs.

Espionage: Definitely less useful. All the CBs means less of a need to fabricate claims. However, if you lead a trade league, this could be very useful with the new spy mission “weaken rival league.”

Ecumenism and Humanist Tolerance: Again, there’s easier ways to lower revolt risk now. These will also make the Papacy hate you. I’m not sure how much the Reformation and spreading of religion has changed now, so maybe Ecumenism could still be important.

Unam Sanctum: It’s a neat CB, but can’t you get the same type within the HRE at a certain point? If not, then it would be a must for the HRE emperor. Aside from that, I’ve never seen a big use of going around, forcing others to convert to you (though it could make a fun game with Muscovy or Byzantines, forcing Europe to go Orthodox). On the other hand, the new Papacy influence can be fun to play with. Combine this with Church Attendance Duty and Divine Supremacy to be the Pope for quite a while. Still, are the abilities to excommunicate and crusade worth 2 or 3 or your NIs?

Cabinet: If you play long enough to get to Gov Tech 30 and haven’t taken over the world yet, you could use this with a combination of philosophers to go on conquest/annexation spree. Since you get more BB/infamy now without good CBs, this should be more useful.
 

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I don't think Shrewd Commerce Practice is very useful if you're in a league. You use your league leader's compete chance, so unless SCP would make your chance higher than theirs it's not doing anything for you.
 

Alerias

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I modded these so;

bureaucracy = {
global_tax_modifier = 0.05 #5% extra tax income
officials = 0.5 #was too weak a NI before
}

patron_of_art = {
prestige = 0.01 #lowered from 2%
cultural_tradition = 0.01
}

Had started with 0.25 for bureaucracy but after finding out how easily you get officials after a few decades (roads and trading posts make them as common as merchants), I figured 0.5 was the minimum needed to make it significant.
 

unmerged(150125)

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Overall it seems like you can too easily get magistrates - though I think the bigger problem is that you have to wait 25 years to move the National Focus. By the time you can, you've built up plenty of magistrates to cover all the NF area. If the mags you get from government types was reduced, there should really be a NI that gives you some. That way someone with a big empire would need to take say Bureaucracy NI or something.
 

Alerias

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I wouldnt saw I feel like we get them too easily given the amount of things you need them for. Do we get merchants, diplomats and spies too often? We can get enough of all of them to fulfill all the things we need them for, pretty much.

My only gripe with Magistrates is that since theres a cap of 5, after awhile, you have to spend them every other month. Theres still stuff you need to do with them, mind you, as mid-game, theres huge demand for these for all sorts of stuff, but once you get 12+/year, and have a continent-spanning empire, it adds quite a bit of micro.

Agreed on the focus. You can tweak that in Defines.txt if you wish.
 

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I don't know. Late game in the 1700s. I never run out of magistrates because I get +5 a year.

All those roads you know...
 

Kaiserjagen

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I agree with you when it comes to the National Bank NI. It's quite useless now that we can spam 5 star MoM's, and let them work for a few years every time we let our inflation crawl up a bit. Used to be a first or second choice NI for me before HttT.
 

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+1

imo there should be a few new (or changed) NIs in relation with the new modifiers

some suggestions:
+ magistrates/year
+% legitimacy/year
+% cultural tradition/year

these are just some thoughts.. they could also be boosted in some other way than simply +.../year :p
 

Musthavename

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Espionage: Definitely less useful. All the CBs means less of a need to fabricate claims. However, if you lead a trade league, this could be very useful with the new spy mission “weaken rival league.

Disagree on this point. "Obscure Documents" for Monarchies (I believe its totally useless for Republics), is one of the best CBs going. Provided that nation will lead an alliance if you DoW, you can subjugate them instantly, then after 50-100 years or so, you'll have most likely inherited them giving you instant-cores. Until then, you'll have a completely willing ally, provided you have the money to get their relations over 0 after the war and can stop them insulting.

Though, this only applies to Free Trade based Monarchies. Chances are if you're sizeable enough to hold onto PUs you're Mercantalistic and get spies anyway. Why this doesn't increase your Spy Efficiency I don't know.

But yes, National Bank is now virtually useless as it's easier just to use MoM's early game, and late game you get tax assessors anyway. Beforehand, every game I started off with National Bank as the first NI, unless I had a good deal of cores to start with, where i'd usually then pick Military Drill or Press Gangs. Bill of Rights is now vastly improved as it gives you a free CB on pretty much any remotly sizeable nation.

Why Bureaucracy doesn't give Magistrates is a complete mystery. Patron of the Arts is also a very nice idea now if you're a Monarchy because Prestige is so important.
 

LeeDub

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Just copy Magna Mundi NIs, tweak them to work and build from there. I think that "single effect only" NIs are a wasted opportunity. They could do so much more, hell, maybe even give synergy bonuses...

Bureaucracy giving magisters is a no-brainer, as is PoA giving cultural tradition. Cabinet should also boost magisters, maybe even improve reform efficiency...
 

GAGA Extrem

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National Bank: Still one of the best first NIs, esp. for the time before you get (overpowered) Master of Mints.

Bill of Rights: Only good for the CB.

Bureaucracy: The worst NI of all. Really.

Merchant Adventurers: Useless. The other trade NI are better - and if you are losing that many merchants, you need the other ideas, if money is a problem... Err...

Shrewd Commerce Practice: Good if you have high infamy, but usually NTP is better. Good 2nd choise for trade nations.

National Trade Policy): Best first NI for trade nations. Adds 5% compete chance and increases trade income during the early game by roughly 30-50%. Very strong.

Espionage: Good against large empires, esp. during the later stages of the game. Fabricate Claims is nice to "catch-a-throne", rebels - esp. pretenders - can wreck havoc if used correctly.

Ecumenism: Nice to have during the reformation. Dunno if it still speeds up conversation events for protestantism / reformed. If it does: Neat!

Humanist Tolerance: Rather weak, but at least better than BoR. Situational idea for multicultural empires.

Unam Sanctum: Weak CB, but at least papal influence. Only good for papal control strategy.

Church Attendance Duty: Stab cost reduction is rather good, papal influence is nice, decent NI for

Divine Supremacy: Rather weak, only useful for papal influence.

Cabinet: Very strong NI, although very late. Still, great for late game conquests!
 

unmerged(150125)

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Ah, didn't know that's what the fabricate claims does now. Are there any other new/changed spy missions now? And I think if I were out east, I would probably use spies a lot now. Big countries like Lithuania and GH seem to just get destroyed by rebels now, apparently not able to run around to all their provinces before rebels take over - if you made those a bunch of patriots for yourself (as one of the Russians), you could take big chunks out of either without having to go to war.
 

Darkrenown

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Unam Sanctum: Weak CB, but at least papal influence. Only good for papal control strategy.
Divine Supremacy: Rather weak, only useful for papal influence.

You're forgetting that either of these NIs provide you with the Holy war CB, which is excellent. Not every nation can become an empire or DotF.
 

unmerged(84132)

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Honestly, there are much better people to hire than master's of mint. By the time my cultural gain was high enough to keep my culture at 100%, I had no need for MoM. Before then, Nat Bank is actually usefull.

Plus, I could not spare any room for a MoM as I was trying to keep my infamy down.
 

Chargone

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yeah, National bank isn't as good/vital as it used to be, but all things considered it still seems a better idea than wasting an adviser slot [which you have less of, and more options for things to put in, than you do national idea slots] on a MoM. MoM are for recovering from situations where you Had to mint extra. national bank is more letting you set your slider higher without gaining inflation in the first place. [yes, i am aware they modify exactly the same stat :D]

that said, it used to be the First national idea i took every single time. [while the AI always seemed to take military drill or conscription. made winning wars hard for a while, but was better than imploding due to inflation <_<] there seems to be a bit more flex in things now.
 

UrineArtist

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Patron of the Arts was and still is one of if not the best NI available.

Combined with a philosopher (vision quest if Pagan) or laterly anti-piracy act it gives you a better chance of dynastic succession, better chance of diplomatic requests being accepted, lower salary of advisors, increased rate of positive relations with everybody, more diplomats, higher merchant and colonist success rate, a morale boost for your army and navies, better fort defense and faster stab increases.

Having 100 prestige in the bank is the best thing to have against stronger neighbours in a defensive war and now in HTTT, Prestige can be used to buy CB's using sphere of influence its even more useful than just ramping it up to 100 and then leaving it.
 
Last edited:

gardel va

First Lieutenant
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Nov 23, 2008
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What happened to Patron of the Arts

I loaded the latest beta, and it seems to have changed Patron of the Arts from +2% prestige (which is quite useful) to an essentially useless +3% cultural tradition. Has anyone else experienced this? It's not listed in any of the documentation as an intentional change.