Re-add the ability to apply templates with unmodifiable traits

[Seven Dancing Cats]

A picture speaks a thousand words, but to put it into context, I encountered both the speed demon and brainslug events and then had a driven assimilator empire capture a planet and then recapture it myself. The trouble with unmodifiable traits is that I am left with multiple subspecies that I can't purge or alter easily and will instead only colonize worlds with the best subspecies. As every stellaris player can vouch, having numerous species, subspecies, and--god forbid xeno-biology--all leads to more end-game lag.

 

[GOLANX]

A picture speaks a thousand words, but to put it into context, I encountered both the speed demon and brainslug events and then had a driven assimilator empire capture a planet and then recapture it myself. The trouble with unmodifiable traits is that I am left with multiple subspecies that I can't purge or alter easily and will instead only colonize worlds with the best subspecies. As every stellaris player can vouch, having numerous species, subspecies, and--god forbid xeno-biology--all leads to more end-game lag.
View attachment 794466

Spreading Ascension Path Traits around is what needed to stop when they made that change. Brainslugs should be able to grow themselves as a sort of resource that is consumed to assimilate pops. Beyond that altering the Parent Template should alter the child templates with the unique trait.

Bio Ascension should allow they study and reproduction of event traits, along with the ability to remove any trait. Synth Ascension to my knowledge will already remove any and all unique traits.

 

[TSBasilisk]

To prevent spreading of special Ascension traits from being overpowered, maybe move the majority of the stat bonuses off the actual trait and have it as an Empire modifier. So base Cyborg could give maybe a +5% Habitability while an empire with "Flesh is Weak" gets a stat that grants the remainder of the buff to all pops with the Cyborg trait. Same thing for Psionics as well.

The explanation being that while other empires can replicate the trait, they lack the understanding and infrastructure to really support it. Cybernetic empires have a better ability to customize and adapt cybernetics to meet the user's requirements while psionic empires have a strong grasp of what being psionic actually means and how to exploit it. Essentially, other empires could get still get the traits, but they'd be cheap knock-offs compared to empires actually pursuing that route.

[EDIT]: Hm, could you link that with Espionage, maybe? Unlock the ability to spread the trait via espionage stealing the basic knowledge from another empire, and maybe increasing the bonus slightly with increasingly difficult operations. Never to the point where it can match an empire with the Ascension perk, but it's something.

 

[GhostDanny]

Personally, I don't why the developers are against a species becoming Psionic, Erudite Cyborgs.
Just have those 3 traits get weakened somewhat if 1 or both of the other 2 are present.

 

[GOLANX]

To prevent spreading of special Ascension traits from being overpowered, maybe move the majority of the stat bonuses off the actual trait and have it as an Empire modifier. So base Cyborg could give maybe a +5% Habitability while an empire with "Flesh is Weak" gets a stat that grants the remainder of the buff to all pops with the Cyborg trait. Same thing for Psionics as well.

The explanation being that while other empires can replicate the trait, they lack the understanding and infrastructure to really support it. Cybernetic empires have a better ability to customize and adapt cybernetics to meet the user's requirements while psionic empires have a strong grasp of what being psionic actually means and how to exploit it. Essentially, other empires could get still get the traits, but they'd be cheap knock-offs compared to empires actually pursuing that route.

[EDIT]: Hm, could you link that with Espionage, maybe? Unlock the ability to spread the trait via espionage stealing the basic knowledge from another empire, and maybe increasing the bonus slightly with increasingly difficult operations. Never to the point where it can match an empire with the Ascension perk, but it's something.

I'm curious if you'd be willing to hack your limbs off for cheap prosthetics just because your neighbor used to be like Cyborg from the teen titans but because he moved they replaced all his super advanced augmentations with cheap prosthetics. I don't understand how you could spread psionic abilities weak or otherwise if you don't understand how they were Awakened. I actually have no problem with the idea that you could spread the Erudite Trait, but the ability to apply a template with 6 trait points over your limit doesn't seem feasible.

 

[GhostDanny]

I don't understand how you could spread psionic abilities weak or otherwise if you don't understand how they were Awakened.

I mean, we DO have spies now.
And if you take over a large amount of Psionic pops, surely some of them would know a thing or two about becoming Psionic...

 

[GOLANX]

I mean, we DO have spies now.

Requires a seperate DLC

And if you take over a large amount of Psionic pops, surely some of them would know a thing or two about becoming Psionic...

The benefit he suggested is that the pop would be lobotomized innately by entering a non-Psionic empire. The Psionic Trait is also the biggest thing that Ascension Path is doing, the Shroud is too random to be valuable, better enforcers are nice but I hope I don't have to explain why enforcers are bad and spending a building slot on them isn't good.

 

[GhostDanny]

Requires a seperate DLC

So what?

The benefit he suggested is that the pop would be lobotomized innately by entering a non-Psionic empire. The Psionic Trait is also the biggest thing that Ascension Path is doing, the Shroud is too random to be valuable, better enforcers are nice but I hope I don't have to explain why enforcers are bad and spending a building slot on them isn't good.

Why would they be lobotomised just because they're in other empire? Another empire would want to want to know how use it themselves.
And better enforcers means you can fire your old enforcers.
When you have enough pops you're going need SOME crime prevention, regardless of your other policies.

 

[GOLANX]

So what?

We've had this Argument before its a scummy buisness Practice, and mods don't like us discussing scummy buisness practices.

Why would they be lobotomised just because they're in other empire?

maybe move the majority of the stat bonuses off the actual trait and have it as an Empire modifier.

The effective result of which on a Psionic pop is a Lobotomy.

Another empire would want to want to know how use it themselves.

How about we delete psi ascension instead? It's pretty worthless

And better enforcers means you can fire your old enforcers.
When you have enough pops you're going need SOME crime prevention, regardless of your other policies.

My enforcers are always fired, why should I waste a building slot to get them back? Very happy pops don't create crime. With enough Amenities even your slaves will never betray you.

Anyways I can't take you seriously anymore your the guy trying to convince me in a other thread that GC resolutions level the playing field between Tall and Wide.

 

[GhostDanny]

your the guy trying to convince me in a other thread that GC resolutions level the playing field between Tall and Wide.

Don't think I've said that.
Again you're putting words in my mouth or just always misunderstanding me.

 

[TSBasilisk]

Psionic trait description:
All members of this species possess powerful psionic abilities. They typically communicate with each other through telepathy.

Essentially, the empire which actually has the Ascension Perk has a fully developed psionic network to communicate through; once you leave that empire, you also leave the network and thus lose access to the shared pool of knowledge. The theories and techniques which allowed the development of the network is linked to the Perk; an empire trying to replicate it would be missing key information to get the full benefits.

Cybernetic description:
This species has embraced cybernetics on such a scale that its members may be considered cyborgs. They routinely replace their organic body parts with more advanced mechanical versions.

The cyborgs get the majority of their bonuses from being able to routinely upgrade and improve their performance. Leaving the empire which is on the cutting edge of the technology means they're more stuck in maintenance at a lower level of efficiency.

 

[GhostDanny]

Psionic trait description:
All members of this species possess powerful psionic abilities. They typically communicate with each other through telepathy.

Essentially, the empire which actually has the Ascension Perk has a fully developed psionic network to communicate through; once you leave that empire, you also leave the network and thus lose access to the shared pool of knowledge. The theories and techniques which allowed the development of the network is linked to the Perk; an empire trying to replicate it would be missing key information to get the full benefits.

It's clearly implied it's a natural network across the whole species.
It just suddenly happened to everyone.
Psionic individuals leaving their own empire, would NOT just simply get cut out of that network.
Even if they could force people out of network somehow, when your whole empire is taken over, would they just shutdown the best tool for a successful rebellion?

Now offcourse that could be a reason why an enemy empire would get rid of that trait through some kind of brain surgery.
But they don't know what to look for, and would prefer to see if they can replicate it in themselves.

 

[GOLANX]

Psionic trait description:
All members of this species possess powerful psionic abilities. They typically communicate with each other through telepathy.

Essentially, the empire which actually has the Ascension Perk has a fully developed psionic network to communicate through; once you leave that empire, you also leave the network and thus lose access to the shared pool of knowledge. The theories and techniques which allowed the development of the network is linked to the Perk; an empire trying to replicate it would be missing key information to get the full benefits.

Cybernetic description:
This species has embraced cybernetics on such a scale that its members may be considered cyborgs. They routinely replace their organic body parts with more advanced mechanical versions.

The cyborgs get the majority of their bonuses from being able to routinely upgrade and improve their performance. Leaving the empire which is on the cutting edge of the technology means they're more stuck in maintenance at a lower level of efficiency.

I don't tend to read too much into fluff text but even if I accept that logic that does not give the conquering empire the ability to reproduce the Psionic Awakening event, which likely requires arcane knowledge and rituals with a little help from the shroud and True Belief. It doesn't mean that pops will be willing to replace organic body parts for very slight/marginal improvements, or even that your empire has the knowledge skills and abilities to create a seamless interface, imagine getting a prosthetic arm that while yes its stronger than your old one can't feel sensation.

Now offcourse that could be a reason why an enemy empire would get rid of that trait through some kind of brain surgery.

A Lobotomy if you don't know what part of the brain is responsible, and your not sure if it is the brain maybe it's his neural ganglion behind his left vertebrae, maybe it's the backup brain in its thorax. Different Species have different Biologies, traits aren't just transferable from 1 species to another.

But they don't know what to look for, and would prefer to see if they can replicate it in themselves.

The idea that the capturing empire would be able to reverse engineer those traits and apply them to their own pops makes you seem fundamentally unserious.

 

[GhostDanny]

A Lobotomy if you don't know what part of the brain is responsible, and your not sure if it is the brain maybe it's his neural ganglion behind his left vertebrae, maybe it's the backup brain in its thorax. Different Species have different Biologies, traits aren't just transferable from 1 species to another.

Lobotomy is a very brute force method which renders them useless even for worker jobs, you might as well just kill and process them.

The idea that the capturing empire would be able to reverse engineer those traits and apply them to their own pops makes you seem fundamentally unserious.

I never said they'd be successful. And I'm more about what an enemy empire would most likely WANT to do.
That's the serious part.