This would still be far more realistic than Sweden launching amphibious invasions of Bengal in 1550 with 100,000 men.
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Rant on unreal westernization...
- Thread starter randy47
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This would still be far more realistic than Sweden launching amphibious invasions of Bengal in 1550 with 100,000 men.
Just get rid of tech maluses and make late game ROTW units extremely inferior to western. Westernizing should replace your units, not remove an arbitrary tech malus.
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Concept of modernization which was tried at Magna Mundi can make present system better, from the perspective of Asian player, but maybe worse from the perspective of developer.
Haha, the idea of making western Europe westernize makes some sense.
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Actually, not that bad. I would say only Admin tech 12 for china, but that's about right.
In all seriousness it would be better than the current setup.
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That is not funny. The current system is awful and does need improvement.
Also your funny example doesn´t make sense at least regarding military tech. Unless chinese rockets suddenly became Nebelwerfers, chinese cannons were not that superior. Definitedly not that better regarding armor, swords etc.
Similarly by 1500 Europe would have equal or better Diplo tech. Let alone by 1600, with all the developments regarding finances and ship construction.
As long as Pdox insists that the difficulty the europeans had in conquering the likes of China wasn´t due to logistics and difficulty to project power in that age, but dumb technological limitations/advantages, we will have a sub-par game.
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Which is stupid because the Renaissance (in as much as there was such a thing) was well underway before the fall of Constantinople, and had nothing to do whatsoever with Byzantine refugees. If anything, in the last decades of the Empire, knowledge was moving from Italy to Byzantium, (though, of course, some material was brought out of the latter by people fleeing the Turks, it wasn't by any means a major factor in the Renaissance).
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No. That's a myth. The Renaissance has its roots in the Umanesimo (Humanism) movement of late 13th-early 14th century, with Petrarch, Dante and other coeval poets, plus Giotto for art; while the Fall of Constantinople brought material to Italy, the Renaissance had been going on for some half a century, at least, and - as said - the first hints were over a century and half in the past.
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Renaissance is overrated anyway, alot of the technology development happened before in the middle ages.
That europe was behind in technology during most of the middle ages is mainly a myth as much as Europe was far ahead in technology before industrial revolution as is the situation in the game.
That europe was behind in technology during most of the middle ages is mainly a myth as much as Europe was far ahead in technology before industrial revolution as is the situation in the game.
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Even before the Fall of Constantinople, Byzantine brains had been leaving since the Sack. While it wasn't the sole contributor (I remember reading about the reconquista bringing some important Muslim knowledge to the West, amongst many other factors), I'm pretty sure the Byzantine exiles were a part of the Renaissance. We're also talking about a game and its limited ability to emulate history.
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The Sack of Constantinople was a part of the roots of Humanism, yes, but that's not the Fall of Constantinople of 1453 (which is the centerpiece of the myth).
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My ideal starting setup would have one or two more tech levels added to the start of the tree to smooth things out (first idea would be at tech 5/6), then start regions off like this: Western - 3/4/3, Byzantine 4/4/4, Muslim 4/4/4, Chinese 5/4/4, Indian 3/3/3. Most Western nations start with a +20% admin and mil tech penalty that gets steadily removed over the course of the first 50 years, moving away from Italy with a DHE to have it start in the Netherlands between 1470-1485 as well. Indians have a +20% to +30% tech penalty (this might also fade over time, but not as fast as in Europe), but the rest of them all have full tech growth. Some parts of Europe along the Med and Iberia actually have a diplo tech cost reduction, representing the strong naval tradition of the region. This should help insure European naval dominance at the start of the game.
Then you have a system that builds up to enlightenment based on conditions like there being lots of other nearby states, having certain government types, having at least x tech, having certain ideas, not having other ideas, decisions in various events, ect. Getting enlightenment adds like -30% tech costs across the board, which would hopefully be offset by a re-balanced tech increase cost over time. Enlightenment also steadily spreads through tech group, similar to the renaissance mechanic.
That said, I worry that the way the OP was written ruins any chance of having a legitimate discussion being taken seriously in this thread.
Then you have a system that builds up to enlightenment based on conditions like there being lots of other nearby states, having certain government types, having at least x tech, having certain ideas, not having other ideas, decisions in various events, ect. Getting enlightenment adds like -30% tech costs across the board, which would hopefully be offset by a re-balanced tech increase cost over time. Enlightenment also steadily spreads through tech group, similar to the renaissance mechanic.
That said, I worry that the way the OP was written ruins any chance of having a legitimate discussion being taken seriously in this thread.
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Well I took the event to mean more than just the Fall itself (even though it is a direct correlation in-game), since 1204 is long before the game start date, as to underline the effect of ex-Byzantines being contributing factors to progress in the West.
I think Indian had the most advanced metallurgy as far as into early 1800s so it is pretty strange that India is often seen as being behind China in technology.
LOL guys, my primary issue isn't with western domination...I recognize that Asian nations and European nations weren't much different until 1700s, 1800s. My issue is with Indian nations westernizing in the first place. European nations usually retain a tech advantage even after this, which even reinforces my point that Asian nations, African nations shouldn't westernize. It's ugly, it doesn't make sense, and it didn't happen in history during this time period.
Once again, my issue isn't really about tech dominance, but it's about the unrealistic swiftness and readiness of African and Asian nations to westernize.
Once again, my issue isn't really about tech dominance, but it's about the unrealistic swiftness and readiness of African and Asian nations to westernize.
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I would actually prefer this. So long as a system is put in place to prevent ai from making a historical conquests. But really a renaissance system is something I would love.
To throw in my two cents, there is an argument to be made that at the 1444 start, the European, Asian and Arabic nations (so not the steppes, Africa or the Americas) should start off on equal tech, with equal (but obviously not the same) units. This is because of, you know, history. Then the later on in the game, non EU nations just get a slowly growing tech malus (like increase over time) that basically shows how Europe became dominant technologically. Also their units would get comparatively worse.
To avoid this malus, there is an option to westernise, but it should link in to massive unrest, some kind of AE penalty (cos of abandoning of traditions) and just generally be much weaker (much more so than presently). if they do westernise, they get western level units. But it takes like 50 years, and it'll be impossible to keep all of your territory.
This, I think, would reflect the parity at the beginning of the period better - preventing early European domination and also reflect the comparative decline in other regions of the world.
To avoid this malus, there is an option to westernise, but it should link in to massive unrest, some kind of AE penalty (cos of abandoning of traditions) and just generally be much weaker (much more so than presently). if they do westernise, they get western level units. But it takes like 50 years, and it'll be impossible to keep all of your territory.
This, I think, would reflect the parity at the beginning of the period better - preventing early European domination and also reflect the comparative decline in other regions of the world.