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TheMeInTeam

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I'm not simply proposing offloading the tech penalty to ideas in equal measure. I'm suggesting that's one shift, and idea costs are less anyway, and the other is to scale the tech penalty. A 60% penalty means you can hit the 1500s behind. A 3% penalty per tech over 5 penalty means tech 10 has a whopping 15% penalty, but tech 20 is 45%, and tech 30 is 75%. It could be actually curved, so that tech 10 is still no penalty, while tech 20 is that 60% and tech 30 is something absurd.

Cascading westernization happens, I assume, because multiple nations are bordering. If Vijay finishes westernizing in 1602, it's possible another nation or two is already underway already off whoever Vijay was off. It's also possible that 5 nations will all westernize off Vijay now, not only one after another sequentially. Seeing the Indian ocean lined with western nations IS something I do routinely see when I play games out to the 1700s.

Yeah, but if they westernize in 1600-1620 you would expect that given my timeframe above (3 iterations in each direction out from Vijay). Only a couple will actually be on par in tech by 1700 though.

The monarch point model itself puts a serious wrench on this.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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I want to know how you made a Republican Mughals with hindu religion

The early picture should be a clue alongside the save name.

This was pre-1.12, so you could get revolutionary rebels from religious ideas. To form Mughals, I simply culture drifted to Persian culture as Orissa and clicked the decision. I was Hindu all along of course.
 

yerm

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Yeah, but if they westernize in 1600-1620 you would expect that given my timeframe above (3 iterations in each direction out from Vijay). Only a couple will actually be on par in tech by 1700 though.

The monarch point model itself puts a serious wrench on this.

If Vijay westernizes by the early 1600s, I expect all its neighbors, and all their neighbors, to be finished before 1700, and some of THEIR neighbors done and the rest probably starting. Which, honestly, is most of south to east Asia. 1444 India is a fun mess of nations, 1644 India is usually a few border-gore mini blobs.

There's also different ways westernization propagates, sometimes going on at the same time. While this chain reaction is going on in India, Russia could have westernized and its spreading down from there, and the Berbers have westernized and its passed to the rump Mamluks and down east Africa. So, while Vijay and immediate neighbors might be the only ones close to caught up with Europe by 1700 in India, they also might not be the only mass-westernizing region either.
 

RedBstrd

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The appearance of unknown horses, unknown technology and an old prophecy that told a story of an bearded god had much more impact then 200-400 musketry.
But its hard to represent this in a game.

I agree with your overall point that Aztec domination over their neighbors and Spanish diplomacy were the primary factors leading to Spanish victory in the Conquest. As a pedantic point, though, we have no pre-Conquest evidence of any Aztec belief that Cortes was the returned god Quetzalcoatl. The idea seems to have originated in the 16th century Florentine Codex, which was a project overseen by a European monk for the benefit of European Christians. The "white-haired and bearded god" idea has obvious propaganda value for conversion purposes, as it passes on the moral to 16th century indigenous people (descendants of the Aztecs and others in New Spain) that the Aztecs would have been more difficult to conquer had they not possessed backward and false beliefs.* It's essentially attributing Aztec defeat to their idolatry.*

*Loaded phrasing intentional due to context... we're talking about religious conversion propaganda here after all.
 
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Beagá

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yerm's proposal sounds great, the only thing I'm worried about: in Africa and Asia frequently the competition is less fierce (as is the AE), so how would we counterbalance the extra monarch points early game? Otherwise it would just mean that blobbing is easier outside of Europe early game.
I think that one factor would be the increased AE for blobs, from 1.13, another would be to give lucky nation status to various nations in Asia and Africa that did well for during the period: Persia, Manchu, Mughals, Marathas if they form (does the game engine allow granting lucky nation status dynamically during a campaign?). Taungu, maybe Bengal, Songhai.

Once this is in a place a possible system would be:
1. 0% tech penalty up to 1550 for everyone.
2. then varying tech penalties for everyone non-Western, increasing at a constant rate so that Chinese tech, for example, would be at 90% tech penalty in 1800.

Why not make the more plausible choice which is limiting conquest due to logistics? Would also work wonders to limit Ming blobbing, major issue in some versions of EU3.

I´m ok with raising tech development a bit if that is implemented.

Even then - step by step westernization > one step westernization. Use Vicky 2 as model and improve on it.
 
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richelieu1628

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Ideally, the game should be balanced so that it is fun to play the rest of the world, but only as long as it allows the big waves of 1444-1821 history to unfold. And that means, for the Americas, game over, for most of Africa, take some ports or come back in the 19th century, for most of Asia, a bit of a fight, or let's not go there at all.

It IS called Europa Universalis, after all.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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Ideally, the game should be balanced so that it is fun to play the rest of the world, but only as long as it allows the big waves of 1444-1821 history to unfold. And that means, for the Americas, game over, for most of Africa, take some ports or come back in the 19th century, for most of Asia, a bit of a fight, or let's not go there at all.

It IS called Europa Universalis, after all.

The game allows that right now.

You seem to be advocating mandating it, which is a different position to take entirely.
 
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Gearsnughunter

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Ideally, the game should be balanced so that it is fun to play the rest of the world, but only as long as it allows the big waves of 1444-1821 history to unfold. And that means, for the Americas, game over, for most of Africa, take some ports or come back in the 19th century, for most of Asia, a bit of a fight, or let's not go there at all.

It IS called Europa Universalis, after all.
Are you also okay with limiting European expansion inside Europe? Right now even with increased coring costs you can still ahistorically conquer in Europe itself so again don't cherry pick game mechanics. So if you want the Rotw to be more historically limited then Europe should just as historically limited, which would make expansion in Europe incredibly unfun/difficult. More or less forcing the player and AI into looking for expansion outside of Europe (that is part of the reason Europe explored in the first place). And again the game isn't about recreating history otherwise you would just get to watch as everything happens around you.
 
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nico_p

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From a game play perspective i don't see anything wrong with westernization, especially from the perspective of a country starting in the western tech group.

It's a fair point that maybe the actual leap from tech group to tech group happens too fast, but since military units don't even change anymore this doesn't produce any tangible difference. Depending on how far they were behind it takes significantly longer than the "westernization" process to actually get caught up in tech and, just as importantly, ideas not to mention province development.

If as a player of a European country you're having trouble combating recently westernized foes then you're probably doing something wrong. Usually the morale and other combat modifier bonuses you get from ideas which, unlike those in lesser tech groups, you have had the luxury of investing in are enough to turn battles in your favour even if somehow they have caught up in tech or outnumber you.

From the perspective of non-western tech groups i've never found the westernization process itself too hard to deal with, but its also not too easy and by the end your country is usually de-stabilized, lacking in legitimacy and monarch points, initially behind in tech even with those of your former tech group, and in some other sort of trouble. Like i mentioned above it also takes a good deal longer to actually catch up in the western tech group to the point where you can meaningfully compete with major European powers. And that is if you can get to this point at all considering that already powerful European powers are also lucky and tend to have some pretty good national ideas combined with the ideas they get to pick. Morale in particular i have always found hard to match and its probably the most important combat modifier.

Moreover regardless of how easy the mechanic is it is still quite possible and not even all that difficult to militarily conquer any country in Asia, Africa, or the New World, a good deal easier than, in my opinion, it ought to be. If the complaint is that the AI westernizing makes this a bit more difficult my response is that it should be.

The point about India and China both westernizing and then allying making it so that overseas expansion is impossible unless you can beat their giant armies is a good one that should be addressed but it doesn't have to do with westernization, but rather the AI diplomacy. In nearly every one of my games France, Spain, and Portugal or England, Spain, and Portugal all ally and all join each others offensive wars half way across the globe with African and Asian minors. This is just as annoying, especially when trying to play in Africa or Asia.
 
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Freudia

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It IS called Europa Universalis, after all.

It is called Europa Universalis because it is a game series that has developed off of a board game of the same name. As we're in the 4th iteration of the series, it is past the point where rebranding it and calling it something else would be a financially wise decision, as the name sells the game currently anyways. EU hasn't been a game where 'Europe and only Europe is allowed to be awesome and if you play anything else, then expect to have a shit experience' since like EU2.
 
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yerm

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ROTW isn't boring. ROTW is just absurd. Westernization results in a completely backwards progression where nations fall behind during the first half of the game and then proceed to catch back up during the latter half, exactly the opposite of what would make sense. It's also not overly fun. Westernization is a sooner the better kind of a setup, rather than a decent tactical decision.
 
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Lajinn

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How about this, if you want to complain about realism you should be willing to accept other historically accurate things, for example, you not being able to ship a ridiculous amount of troops anywhere in the world as you please. Oh, but would that weaken the precious Europeans by forcing them to fight against much larger forces because they historically would never be able to handle moving that many soldiers across the oceans at once?
 
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yerm

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How about this, if you want to complain about realism you should be willing to accept other historically accurate things, for example, you not being able to ship a ridiculous amount of troops anywhere in the world as you please. Oh, but would that weaken the precious Europeans by forcing them to fight against much larger forces because they historically would never be able to handle moving that many soldiers across the oceans at once?

How about this, if you want to post in a thread that is 10 pages long, you don't rehash the same tired crap that's been said and debunked a dozen times already?

How about you tell me, completely absent any argument about realism, what's actually good or fun about westernization? It's current implementation results in a system where ROTW nations fall behind Europe until they eventually westernize and then start catching back up. This means that for many places in the world they are at their relative weakest in the late 1600s or so, and by the last half century of the game they actually catch up to western nations in tech. It also creates a mechanic whereby there is no strategy on westernizing timing other than having the monarch points and the option, the strategy becomes one of getting to that point (rushing exploration, colony seizing, etc). Finally, westernization itself is so good, or perhaps the lack of being western is so bad, that EVERY nation with the ability to westernize wants to. There's no reason to NOT westernize unless it's already past 1800 anyway.

What about that is fun? What about that promotes good strategy? Forget realism, it sucks whether or not it's realistic, and the fact that it's not realistic AND sucks for gameplay just means there's no reason for it.
 
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Lajinn

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How about this, if you want to post in a thread that is 10 pages long, you don't rehash the same tired crap that's been said and debunked a dozen times already?

How about you tell me, completely absent any argument about realism, what's actually good or fun about westernization? It's current implementation results in a system where ROTW nations fall behind Europe until they eventually westernize and then start catching back up. This means that for many places in the world they are at their relative weakest in the late 1600s or so, and by the last half century of the game they actually catch up to western nations in tech. It also creates a mechanic whereby there is no strategy on westernizing timing other than having the monarch points and the option, the strategy becomes one of getting to that point (rushing exploration, colony seizing, etc). Finally, westernization itself is so good, or perhaps the lack of being western is so bad, that EVERY nation with the ability to westernize wants to. There's no reason to NOT westernize unless it's already past 1800 anyway.

What about that is fun? What about that promotes good strategy? Forget realism, it sucks whether or not it's realistic, and the fact that it's not realistic AND sucks for gameplay just means there's no reason for it.

I like westernization because it makes up for the arbitrary maluses given to other nations for no other reason than to give Europeans an advantage. While it is currently a pretty bad system, its better than nothing, and I would definitely support improving it. The system IS quite flawed, but as it stands it seems like its the only one we're going to see because a better system would require an entire rework of how the game works outside of Europe. However, removing it entirely just so Europeans can roll over everything with ease is a terrible game design decision.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I like westernization because it makes up for the arbitrary maluses given to other nations for no other reason than to give Europeans an advantage. While it is currently a pretty bad system, its better than nothing, and I would definitely support improving it. However, removing it entirely just so Europeans can roll over everything with ease is a terrible game design decision.

Yerm's pushing an alternative implementation to how the game currently works, not what the OP is pushing.
 
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Lajinn

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Yerm's pushing an alternative implementation to how the game currently works, not what the OP is pushing.

Okay then, in that case I'm sorry Yerm, I misunderstood your position. I agree that there should be a better alternative than what we currently have. But I will accept this system until Paradox or modmakers create a better one.
 
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Russia, Ming and Ottomans westernized, 1646.

This is BS. I´d rather see no one westernizing than that. That is madness, and is not Sparta.
 
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Updating...

Russia, Ming and Ottomans westernized, 1646.

This is BS. I´d rather see no one westernizing than that. That is madness, and is not Sparta.

Russia and Ottomans even get a freebie for owning a magic city. For some reason, other tech groups that take the same city and own the same territory do not get to use the magic city.
 
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Updating...

Russia, Ming and Ottomans westernized, 1646.

This is BS. I´d rather see no one westernizing than that. That is madness, and is not Sparta.
If you don't want Ming westernizing, let them keep pace with Western nations technologically. I don't see how Ming could have westernized, though, since that would require an adjacent European power to westernize off of.
 
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