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Agelastus

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Originally posted by Chimera
Explain why Manstein strat 2 please. I think your Monty rating is innovative and hilarious, but you're probably gonna get some flak from our British friends. :)

I don't see why he should.............any halfway sane Brit would acknowledge that he was somewhat erratic. I'd have used a 1d10 though..............:)

Manstein was an excellent "operational general" rather than strategist. Although I'd give him higher than a two just for coming up with the germ of the Ardennes offensive in 1940. He did support the Kursk offensive though, even when intelligence was available that gave a not entirely innacurrate (as too much German intelligence did) picture of Russian strength in the salient.

So strategically he's got a 1/1 hit/miss record. But operationally I can't think of anyone to beat him.............:)
 

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Originally posted by Agelastus

I don't see why he should.............any halfway sane Brit would acknowledge that he was somewhat erratic. I'd have used a 1d10 though..............:)


Well, sanity often gets lost in the heat of nationalistic/patriotic fervor. :)


Manstein was an excellent "operational general" rather than strategist. Although I'd give him higher than a two just for coming up with the germ of the Ardennes offensive in 1940. He did support the Kursk offensive though, even when intelligence was available that gave a not entirely innacurrate (as too much German intelligence did) picture of Russian strength in the salient.


Yes, German intelligence did indeed hint that the Russians had built some really strong defenses, but Manstein was almost certainly encouraged by the fact that no Soviet defense had ever (in good weather) been able to defeat a massed armored attack, so he may be partially excused for this IMO.
 

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Originally posted by Chimera


Explain why Manstein strat 2 please. I think your Monty rating is innovative and hilarious, but you're probably gonna get some flak from our British friends. :)

He spent millions of Reichsmarks to buy an estate in East Prussia in late 1944 (IIRC). Any rating above strat 2 would have told him to put his money somewhere else.

The Ardennes plan is included in my 9 ops rating.

Gamelin:
- pre-war planner 7 (the way 1st Army Group as a whole started rolling within hours of the German attack was quite an organizational feat that's often overlooked).
- General: -6 (ie, he was about as effective for the Germans as if they had infiltrated 6-rated general of their own as French Army CinC)

Churchill: creative wishful thinking and interference 9 (I'd have loved to see the face of the RN admiral in front of him when he put forward his idea of turning the R-class battleships into floating bunkers and have them operate in the Baltic, or that of the first FO guy to whom he explained his plans to put an anti-German Balkan alliance together!)

Longer-ranged tech foresight special award: Walter Dornberger
 

Agelastus

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Originally posted by Sire Enaique
Churchill: creative wishful thinking and interference 9 (I'd have loved to see the face of the RN admiral in front of him when he put forward his idea of turning the R-class battleships into floating bunkers and have them operate in the Baltic.............

Longer-ranged tech foresight special award: Walter Dornberger

He'd been an admirer of Fisher too long...............

On the other hand, given the inferior status of the Rs, perhaps he had a point about the need for radical thinking over their use!:)

Dornberger impresses Harry Turtledove too-he gets to be Fuhrer after Himmler and Kaltenbrunner in the "Colonisation" series!:D
 
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Originally posted by Chimera
Originally posted by piero
wellit all depensds what rating means...


Maletti, was the best (only) tank commander of Italy... the only one to have some ideas on use of tanks in a massed force, a la german, rather than as infantry support. alas, he was died early in the war.

On Guderian... well, great genius in developing the panzer arm, but his performances and his mishaps in the political dealing with OKH made it less efficient (Manstein could get His way and negotiate even with Hitler...) so the lower mark... but it is debatable.

Zhukov and Konev were some of the best but.. also had their miserable failures... in the purest sense of use of combined arms, I feel from my readings of Bagration and the latter drive in Germany, etc. that Rokossovski was one perhaps even better... but yeah, of course debatable...

On Dietl and Student.. of course, they had their failures and were "smaller" in their use (more division commanders than corps/army/armny group... but the use of theri troops in both half defeats like Crete and narvik, they were daring and against difficult odds... so.. also debatable... put Meindl or Dietl at the command of an Army Group and see what happens...

I'll add some more here :

Schörner : 6
Stulpnagel : 5.5
Sepp Dietriech : 5

but really my favorite one is the british Simms... and yeah, Monty, grrrrrrreat strategist but not that great commander....I'd gladly hire his PR staff.
 

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Originally posted by piero

Zhukov and Konev were some of the best but.. also had their miserable failures... in the purest sense of use of combined arms, I feel from my readings of Bagration and the latter drive in Germany, etc. that Rokossovski was one perhaps even better... but yeah, of course debatable...

I think you are right. Rokossovski also did much better at Kursk than any other front commander, he kept Model to less than 10 miles advance.
 

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Originally posted by Sire Enaique
First, fortifications: there's never been a single example in history where well-designed fortifications have been detrimental the the defending side. By well-designed, I mean without major flaws like Eben-Emael's lack of top defenses (the importance of which had been stressed at Verdun, paratroops or no paratroops) or technological backwardness (like medieval castles against cannon).

Sean, You say the Maginot line was a white Elephant: I don't agree with you at all: without the Maginot line enabling the French Army to hold half the line with only minimal forces, the mobile wing simply couldn't have existed. That it didn't really matter in the end because the French simply squandered those forces doesn't change the fact that it was the Maginot line that made it possible to assemble an army group the Germans had to find a way to deal with.
The Maginot line held less than 50% of the line, and failed absolutely in it's goal to defend France. Remember, at time of building that was it's promise, to keep German troops from entering France.

It was not some minor set of forts, but a mammoth undertaking which allowed the French army to feel a false sense of security.

You are correct that well designed forts are not detrimental in themselves, however unless part of a coherent strategy they may undermine their own army's ability to conduct a sucessfull campaign.

Off the top of my head a nice example is West Point. Excellent defensive position, as a strategic position it neatly divides the population of the 13 colonies in two, and when it fell proved disasterous for Britain. Another would be Wavell's Gazala linem the reliance upon it responsible for the fall of Tobruk, and with a better German occupied port the fall of North Africa.

You might argue that these were flawed defenses, but the problem is that all breached defenses might be argued as flawed.
OK, what would have happened if they HADN'T been there?

I'll stick with the 1944 landings because the case is both simpler and it was the main point under discusion.

Do not defend the coast and what you get is a June lodgement in the Pas-de-Calais, with several major ports safely inside the beachhead on the very first day of invasion, within a half-hour sea crossing from Dover and so close to airbases and radars in Britain that air defense of the beachhead can readily be integrated within the British air defence command structure. This beachhead can be reinforced much faster than Normandy even before the ports can be repaired and is in fact easier to defend.
A lodgement in pas de Calais does not necesarily drop intact ports into allied hands. With competent demolitions, the best the allies can hope for is severely damaged ports which may be no better short and medium term than Mulberry + damaged Cherbourg.

As for air defence being upgraded, again, unnecesary when air superiority was total.

As France fell within weeks of the Normandy breakout, the fortifications at Calais failed absolutely to defend France. They may have prevented an earlier allied assault into Holland and Germany, but at most they prolonged the war for 6 months. Not exactly an achievement commensurate with their investment.

Finally, if logistic requirements were such that the allies chose to land in Pas de Calais, reversing their deception so that German HQ expects Patton to land in Normandy, do you think that the fortifications were sufficient to keep the allies on the beaches?

The Germans faced an opponent with complete air superiority and awesome tac air, and more generally with a considerable material edge. Once the Allies were ashore and they could get organized, it would be extremely difficult to push them back into the sea.
Without the Atlantic Wall, what could Germany build instead? More fighters/tanks/AT guns? Assuming they are deployed on the Western Front do these assets have a greater impact than fortifications.
Now if there'd been, say, three full-strength Pz divs around Caen on June 6th instead of a single not-that-full-strength one, the British would probably have run into a lot more trouble. As it was, counterattacks by 21st Pz on June 6th eventually led to closing down Sword Beach. What more divs could have achieved is open to endless debate but the fact is the single available one DID have an effect. It wasn't enough to be decisive, but it lets one wonder what would have happened had Rommel had its way with the Pz.
With Rommel in absolute command, there is a chance of driving the allies out of France. However, the critical element is the placement and swift counter attack by Panzers, not the number of intact blockhouses on the seafront.
 

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Originally posted by SoleSurvivor
concrete tanks? wood cannons? How do the planes look like that are created from the assets of the west wall instaed?

Well Germany developed an all-wood prototype based on the Mosquito :p

Presumably, by 1943/44 and the highly controlled status of the German economy; the power, workforce and $$$ which produce concrete might be switched to produce something more useful.
 
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I forgot :

Germans
Paulus (not a "von"): 3
Manteuffel: 5

Italians
Messe : 6 (the only one that has a real good record in Spain and Russia, considering tha resources and quality of Italy's "hollow legions")

French ones
Leclerc : 5
De Lattre : 5
Juin : 6
Gamelin : 4
 

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Originally posted by piero
I forgot :
Germans
Paulus (not a "von"): 3
Manteuffel: 5


Well, Paulus will always be remembered for Stalingrad, but in fairness, he should not be blamed for not trying to break out - Hitler expressly forbade him to do so - but for attacking Stalingrad frontally. He should have tried to surround the city first by pushing across the Don and Volga. I give him a 4.5 or so. Can you just take away a man's "von" like that? ;)

Manteuffel deserves at least 6.5 if not higher - his defensive victories against the Russians in 1943-4 are noteworthy, and his conduct during the Bulge was impressive given the odds against him.
 
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Originally posted by Chimera
Manteuffel . [/B]

yeah, you may be right... but in the Bulge was a bit weak.. granted against impossible odds..

on Paulus.. (he is often mistankenly named Von Paulus, but he was from modest origins and not noble..) well, I think his best generalship is actually Stalingrad... but his previous actionsas Chief of Staff were not that impressive and records from the early part of Barbarossa show a failry idecisive attitude.

hey.. no one comments on whay Italian rankins are soo low.
 
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Originally posted by Chimera
That's because we all think they should be so. ;) IMO, Italy did the Allies a favor by entering the war on Germany's side.

yeah, we should build statues to mussolini.

on italian generals, (I know the stuff well, beeing italian) tehy were very lousy... since perhaps 580AD ? except perhaps Garibaldi or the great captains ont he 14th to 17th century - but that's another thread... actually, more than lousy (WWI was a disaster, WWII was almost laughable... oh, most desplayed courage, gallantry, etc. that goes witht he education and noble/upper class rmanticized education and upbringing... but their results were lousy, IMHO, only Messe was professional (and Maletti, as I said, but he died early in the War) and Fougier of course, who was of the military visionnaires of the 20th century.. (the guy invented strategic bombing). My grandfather used to say.. "to win the war, you need to have German officers to lead the italian soldiers" he would say that before getting deported by germans to forced labour in germany... but simple soldiers hated/disrespected their high ranking officers in both World Wars as beieng vainglorious, more interested in garden parties, than to visit the frontline, and easy to sacrifice soldiers but not their leisure houses.....
that said, no one hass other comments or opinions on specific ones ?
 

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I'm sorry to hear about your grandfather. Hope he made it back OK.
There's also Douhet, a great strategic bombing theorist. On a lighter note, I love Italian cooking. Excellent stuff, and I'm not just talking pasta and pizza. German food on the other hand is ... well, that's how you make such mighty soldiers. Serve 'em crap and get 'em all riled up. ;)
 
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To Piero

Why do you forget Field marshal Carl Gustav Mannerheim, the Finnish High Commander.
The motti tactic was developed in the Finnish army during his time.
For all foreigners I have to explain the motti very brief.It was developed as a tactic to ambush and defeat an overwhelming enemy in a forrest landscape. Read about Soumussalmi, Raate, Kuhmo, Tolvajärvi etc. and you will know.

Actually the brave Finns fought alone against a savage enemy for 100 days in the winter 1939/40 and almost stopped him. The proportions between the forces was som thing like 1:10. The Finns had bad equippment but lot more guts then the Frenchmen with all their armament had in 1940.
 
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Mannerheim

My note will be some thing like this:

Military 8,5
Political 9 (During WWII and after)
Personal 10 (The Bohemian Corporal came to his 75th birtday. On the film the mimic of the old getleman show us that he disliked his "guest")

Average 9
 
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Agelastus

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Originally posted by Chimera
There's also Douhet, a great strategic bombing theorist.

I've never been overly impressed with Douhet, if only because he was a visionary quite a few decades ahead of his time. He formulated his theory in complete defiance of the technology at hand, and convinced a lot of otherwise sane people of a strategic implausibility.

Can anyone think of a genuine example where airpower alone has won a battle/war?