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DeanTheDull

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Shoutout to Harmony if you're a Doomsday origin addict like me. Kinship's 75% reduction time to pop demotion is HUGE. Other than that, it's hard to notice that tradition perk and I've always felt it should have a secondary effect. Adaptability's resettlement perk suffers the same, it should have a secondary perk for those who do not resettle.

Harmony's also a fair bit better for Necrophages, since it lets Necrophages unity-bomb their way through the ascension tree and can decrease the time for the rest of the trees by decades.

Necrophage-harmony replaces the leader lifespan aspect with a 5-100 unity buff per pop that is necrophaged. This is 1.5 times your monthly unity to the cap of 100, but it also applies to both necrophyte and necro-purge conversions. Assiming you're going wide-ish as you should, this amounts to 100-300 unity per elevation ceremony per planet per decade, which quickly starts adding up to potentially several thousand extra unity per decade for doing what you should already be doing as a necrophage, ie converting your pops into necro-specialists, who themselves benefit more from the 5% stability than normal worker sorts. At Tier 2 conversion buildings with the guaranteed 6 slots, that's 600 unity a decade a planet, which- when spread across a wide empire...
(And- if you're the conquering xenophobe sort- the ability to get thousands of unity per planet you necro-purge.)

This makes Harmony a catalyst on not only getting your later trees far ahead of schedule than a 'normal' empire, but those later ascension perks as well. IE, megastructure spam. Which, in turn, works well with other necrophage synergies like pop-abduction and necro-purge strategems.

For necrophages who are already by nature typically pop/economy bloomers who take longer than most empires to 'take off,' that's a reasonable trade-off, as the tradition tree saving means those catalyst trees will be coming on-line at about the point of time you'd need/want them to once your mid-game economy starts booming.
 

Nevars

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Shoutout to Harmony if you're a Doomsday origin addict like me. Kinship's 75% reduction time to pop demotion is HUGE. Other than that, it's hard to notice that tradition perk and I've always felt it should have a secondary effect. Adaptability's resettlement perk suffers the same, it should have a secondary effect for those who do not resettle.
Harmony is pretty good already cuz of 5 stab and +1 edict so I don't see how anyone can demand for it to be buff while the like of domination and subterfuge still exist.
 
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legionof1

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The only standouts imo are thus:

Subterfuge is gold leaf on a turd sandwich. It's numerically the strongest and most focused tree, too bad it applies to a practically toothless system. If espionage was worth more then a bit of tech catchup(why are you behind anyway?), this would go from pointless to a must pick overnight.

Mercantile is part bonkers power, part deeply disappointing. Extra jobs, and ruler tier jobs at that, while buffing base output for the rest of the building is huge. and % buff to affected jobs too. By itself it catapults an empire from too little trade to bother with addressing piracy at all to stacking protection starbases and patrol fleets barely keeps the lid on

However takeing away trade policy and gating it to a tree pick is awful. Your telling me that someone need to be a mercantile empire to figure out trading for something other then pure money. yeah sure, i got a bridge to sell ya. Tradeing for goods(consumer economy) or knowledge/expertise(marketplace of ideas) came first. Money is the abstract/advanced concept. Never mind just reducing player agency from a previous level, which i take as a grievous sin in game design when its not done to preserve the integrity of the gameplay or story.

The unlock bonus is also pointles to actively detrimental depending on map layout because it makes every star-base into effectively a 1 trade dock base, which makes not only extra piracy routes but messes placing starbases on choke points and other strategic points cause you might end up grabing up a high trade colony away from the actaul trade hub since closest base gets priority even over the capitol system. And 5 protection its utterly worthless in the face of the hundreds of trade a single colony can churn out.

Lastly -%market fee while thematic is pretty irrelvent in the face of the sheer income a mercantile empire can produce. My current empire while being mercantile is at 7k+ trade without really doing anything but a single commercial zone per planet and gal exchange on the advanced worlds. Not thrifty, not maximizing trade partners, not optimizing designations, no trade habs. I could probably be up in the tens of thousands if i went whole hog, but as it is do i notice trade fees? nope, think im gonna notice at 2 or 3 times the magnitude of income, also nope.
 
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Oculument

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Subterfuge is well used to get techs you want, as well as tech you don't want. Techs you don't want stay in your tech card selection as partially researched and can be left there neglected forever. This improves what techs you do get and helps beelining. Swarmer missiles no longer clogging up the engineering tree is a great advantage.
 
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legionof1

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Subterfuge is well used to get techs you want, as well as tech you don't want. Techs you don't want stay in your tech card selection as partially researched and can be left there neglected forever. This improves what techs you do get and helps beelining. Swarmer missiles no longer clogging up the engineering tree is a great advantage.
Hurm, good point about hanging partials, not that it redeems esponage in general. But something i hadn't thought about.
 
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Tamwin5

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Given how hive-minds work, expansion is actually slower expansion. Expansion is better as a second tradition, if ever.

Hivemind colony ships are gated in the early game more by food than alloys. Gestalts have greater alloy potential than normal organics, since they don't need consumer goods, but for hive minds it's heavily offset by food, with 500 vs 200 food requirements. You need more drones, working more time, to get the food to afford a colony ship, which is why AI gestalts are usually so delayed in getting colony ships started. Expansion doesn't help that, and actually complicates it since the first job a second pop plays after the food-hungry spawning pool is the also-food hungry coordinator drone (to offset the admin cap of having the planet. Those two pops have a -7 food job upkeep- not including the pop upkeep- or one farmer on your homeworld.

+4 starbases with hydroponics bays blows the food limit out of the water. +40 food a month nearly pays for a colony ship's food per year, whereas it'd take over 6 homeworld farmer drones to match that output... which would be two districts in mineral cost (the biggest early-game chokepoint) and 6 pops (in an empire that has maybe 30-ish), pops not working science or alloys instead. This is even more significant with Tree of Life, which has an even higher food cost.

The colony development speed is marginal, going from 2 years and 10 months (58 months) to- with a 25% boost- about 46 months, or a 12 months savings. Better than nothing, but if a year's worth of colony ship food a year lets you settle a year early, it negates. If it lets you afford the colony ship two or more years early, it's not only far superior, but even offsets the 10% growth rate. 10% growth is- early on- worth .3 growth a month, or +3.6 growth a year. Getting a colony set up a year earlier with base growth is worth 3 growth a month, or +36 growth. You'd need a decade for the 10% growth to match the benefit of each year Unyielding helps you settle earlier... and that's if you don't just take the 10% growth tradition before then anyway as a second tree.

And this is without mathing in the implication of hive pop assembly. For most empires, growth is most decisive early game because of how long it takes for pop-assembly to come on line. But pop assembly is immediate as soon as the first pop for gestalts, so the marginal impact for total planetary growth is something like half that for hive minds. (3.3 is a 10% growth, but 3.3 + 2 , or 5.3, is only 6% growth- which itself will be caught up if you take the Expansion tradition second, well before most planets are acruing much natural growth.)





Considering your Hive mind's unity potential from coordiantor drones, if you go Unyielding first that's basically what happens.

The 100 alloys per upgrade amounts to about 300 alloys for the first three starbases you'd normally get (once you have enough stations to build to 4 starbases rather than the starting 3), and at that point of the game the 300 alloys are what would enable you to get 6 starbase modules up as soon as you can. The hydroponics bays are actually more useful than the solar panels, as they have a higher effective job output (10 to 6 vs 6 to 6), and let you basically immediately transfer all your homeworld farmer drones to othe drones, which likely increases your science and alloys more than if you freed up the generators.






Nah, Catalytic Converter is busted in the early-game with unyielding. It's basically worker-free alloy upkeep.

Most analysis on Catalytic vs non-catalytic focuses on later-game productivity ratios per pop of farmers vs miners when the tech upgrades come into play, but that misses the economic advantage that matters more- early game pop utilization.

In gestalt or normal empires, the biggest early-game chokepoint of the starting decade- the factor that prevents you from being able to maximize scientists and alloys- is minerals more than anything else. Your starting mineral income is low, and you need hundreds of minerals to building anything. Meanwhile, both scientists and alloy workers are very hungry in mineral upkeep (either directly with gestalts, or to fund alloy/CG production as normals), with the worse effect that they lower your mineral income at the point of the game where any income lowering also delays your building investments by months or years. When every industrial district or science lab build directly or indirectly lowers your mineral income by 12- the cost of upkeep for the alloy/CG production to support it- that can slow your economic rollout by months or years.

Catalytic converter is great because it offload your starting-game alloy upkeep to a source that doesn't require workers, thus leaving more minerals to fund your science game. Even at 9-food-a-converter, 4 starbases with 4 hydroponic bays can cover the upkeep of 4 catalytic converters on your capital, for a very healthy early game +12 alloys. As empires usually start at +12 alloys, that's basically an early-game doubling of your alloy production economy without needing a single worker playing upkeep. With Unyielding, 8 starbases can cover the cost of 8 alloy workers for +24 alloys. Hydroponics-cataltyic starbases pays themselves off in about a decade, and then gives excess alloys (compared to what you'd otherwise have) every decade therafter.

This is in addition to shifting your early game war-science economy. As you need far less minerals to support an alloy economy, you can focus on early-game corvette boosting techs rather than mineral economy techs as your starting picks. And because your alloy upkeep is food, society research- not engineering or physics- becomes the basis for improving your alloy upkeep economy. Meaning, again, that you're freer to prioritize engineering onto war rather than alloy-supporting economics.

Combined, this gives you a starting economy that can afford both fleets without needing to increase the worker upkeep base per district, and use those saved workers as science for a science boost, and enjoys greater tech pathing efficiency letting them bee-line to corvette techs.

All together, catalytic-gestalts can pretty reliably crush enemies by year 25, as your starbase hydroponics bays finish paying themselves off and start funding an overwhelming alloy economy for corvettes who have had time to get multiple early military techs from the scientists afforded by not having to pay the alloy upkeep in miner-pops. Those conquests, in turn, become the basis of your snowball, whether the pops are conventional conquests or hive-mind livestock (at which point they become part of the gameplay loop, as captured livestock provide the food to expand alloy production for more fleets to capture more food).

(Because empires are generally still relatively equivalent at this point, this will often be more about rivalry wars... which means a chance to get several hundred influence for the resource edicts which you otherwise wouldn't be able to afford, giving you even more worker efficiency to afford more scientists and alloys...)


All this is missed by the usual 'well, fifty-sixty years in, with all the economy techs, miners are marginally more efficient per pop than catalytic converters.' That's missing the forest for a tree. Catalytic plays it's gameplay role in the first 30-odd years, and it's a war-economy civic that lets you start your snow-ball far faster than a typical bloom strategy.

Colony ships are cheaper for a Hive than a normal empire. Assuming a value of 2 energy/food per CG, then you trade 200 CG for only 300 food. It might be a little harder to get the food right away, but the price is still cheaper. Hives also aren't any better on a pop per alloy ratio then normal empires, just that they have the ability to get more of them easier (since two jobs per district on homeworld).

Another big reason to not go straight Unyielding is you don't have access to Hydroponic farms off the bat, just solar panels. And with 6 society tech options available at start (for hives), there is only a 50% chance of having It available as your first research. I feel like I generally have my first colony up and another ~2 in progress by the time I get my first tech. TBH this is probably a build order thing, and the right build order for an unyielding opener is different from an expansion opener.

I'll probably do some tests about this tomorrow, see how the timings are looking. It might depend on if you can get hydroponics as your first tech. You've sold me on catalytic though.
 

legionof1

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On the topic of hydroponics, you can start with the tech with the void dweller origin, thou you lose some alloy in the process for hab upkeep, and have to deal with the habitation preference challenge, but then if your going faster conquest due to tech pick synergy, your out to steal other races wholesale anyway so probably not a big deal.
 

DeanTheDull

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Colony ships are cheaper for a Hive than a normal empire. Assuming a value of 2 energy/food per CG, then you trade 200 CG for only 300 food. It might be a little harder to get the food right away, but the price is still cheaper. Hives also aren't any better on a pop per alloy ratio then normal empires, just that they have the ability to get more of them easier (since two jobs per district on homeworld).
It's also the fact that homeworld industrial output is superior to any other early colony you can get, since you're not fighting against habitability penalties and are benefiting from the captial-world stability buff for the ~3% output of all jobs, which is bad for workers but good for specialists. The two alloy-jobs-per-district thus halves the mineral investment and energy upkeep cost, which in turn means fewer pops needed for the upkeep/less time needed to do it. It's a non-direct effeciency boost, but it is a pop-efficiency boost.

I get what you mean, though, so just adding a note to your note (which I agree with in principle).

Another big reason to not go straight Unyielding is you don't have access to Hydroponic farms off the bat, just solar panels. And with 6 society tech options available at start (for hives), there is only a 50% chance of having It available as your first research. I feel like I generally have my first colony up and another ~2 in progress by the time I get my first tech. TBH this is probably a build order thing, and the right build order for an unyielding opener is different from an expansion opener.

I'll probably do some tests about this tomorrow, see how the timings are looking. It might depend on if you can get hydroponics as your first tech. You've sold me on catalytic though.
Sweet. The consensus is changed by just one more.

I'll add that while Hydroponics isn't a guaranteed first, you also don't necessarily need it to be. Play with it when you try the timing, but I've found that waiting to build any more starbases- and thus hydroponics bays- usually waits until the third Tradition unlocks, to get that 50% alloy saving for the starbase upgrading. That's 200 alloys if you wait for your first three, which is enough to cover the solar panel costs of those two starbases. Then you use your other alloys not-already-spent on expansion to build your next 4 starbases that you get with that point of the unyielding. The reason not to build the first two immediately is that your alloy budget is tight in the starting game as-is, especially if you've got rapid construction ship expansion or invested in more than 2 science ships- and the time it takes to work off the 200 alloy deficit could be time you could get those other starbase components built and running.


But- and this is why it's hydroponics doesn't necessarily need to be first- it takes a few years to get to that point, and by the time it does you're going to have the better part of another year of the starbase-building and solar panel investments. Which, in and of themselves, are already useful for freeing up homeworld pops to better jobs like science, to let you research that society tech more quickly, etc. etc..

The hydroponics bay tech definitely gatekeeps the start of your alloy expansion economy, but only after you'd have already built the starbase. Which, with unyielding, isn't (quite) an opening move, and is still a better alloy-economy than, well, not embracing catalytic hydroponic bays.
 
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Ryika

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In the few attempts that I did yesterday, Hydroponic Bays were definitely available by the time I was able to start spamming starbases. I started with +1 Research Alternatives though, so that may have made it more consistent. Didn't go for a Catalytic Processing build, but I have to say those Hive starts with Unyielding do feel really good in general, it avoids a lot of the early economic bottleneck. Which I of course abused by not adding aaaaaany Alloys for half of the game, and just spamming aproxximately 2 million Labs, plus-minus a million or so.
 
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DeanTheDull

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On the topic of hydroponics, you can start with the tech with the void dweller origin, thou you lose some alloy in the process for hab upkeep, and have to deal with the habitation preference challenge, but then if your going faster conquest due to tech pick synergy, your out to steal other races wholesale anyway so probably not a big deal.

I've never really done void dweller, so I'm not really sure how it'd mesh, but I don't think catalytic combos would work for the Void Dwellers Or rather, unyielding might be good, but catalytic might not be worth the cost.

Void dwellers can't be gestalt, IIRC, so they wouldn't get the solar panel income, but the food output is still the same. With catalytic that food is going into your alloy economy, so it's obviously not feeding you, but alloy-wise it pays itself back within 7-ish years with unyielding. 80 food would upkeep 8 catalytic technicians for about 28 alloys a month (factoring in capital and void-dweller 15% buff), which would be enough to cover the 1500 habitat cost at a rate of about 1 habitat every 5 years.

But that would delay your habitat expansion phase to around year 20ish, and be working against the alloys (and influence) you spend in the set-up. 10 solar systems expansion would be about 1000 alloys of their own, and more influence for more systems.

On the other hand, if influence from expansion isn't as big an issue, Unyielding could have a significant early-game boost. Without catalytic, Unyielding basically resolves your early-game food economy issue. 80 food would be enough to cover pretty much all pop food upkeep needs for most of the early/mid-game without a single farmer until you get past 80 pops- 160 if you play a plantoid with phototropic- letting your pops focus on the jobs Voiddwellers actually thrive on, the districts.

Unyielding as a first choice would then also let you use Void Dweller's building slots to rush unity for the second and third traditions. Without needing to cram hydroponic bays on every building slot, and working with districts instead, you could put Strongholds in them for +3 unity/1 energy worker-free conversion, especially when you take Voidborne ascension for +2 building slots each. That would more than make up for your starting habitat's lower-lnumber of administrators and natural unity production.

If you did that, then by the time you are ready to afford the alloys for more habitats, you'd definitely be through the second tradition tree (expansion) and able to start reaping the Habitat construction discount void dwellers get.



This probably wouldn't be as powerful as a Mercantile-Void Dweller spamming Merchant jobs and then buying food upkeep, but it'd be a different build that doesn't drive you down that meta path.
 

evilcat

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Discovery A early or mid
More science is always good, good first pick if we are tech rushing (always?).

Domination C Late
Generalist tradition giving bonuses to everything and nothing. Pick when good stuff is taken.
Edict, Influence are sometimes useful. Admin cap, workers output, and leader limits are ok but not special.


Expansion A/B Early
This one is only good early, and it translates poorly into late game. Discovery is better start, unless you have Unity start so can get both.
Better if you are genocidal or gestalt, or void dweller.
But it does not give much power late game.

Prosperity S Mid Late
Generally good pick. It improves your science, alloys, and even makes basic resources a bit better. I always pick it.

Supremacy S Mid Late
Unless you are super pacifist. Most games there is some war, and having more fleet, and cheaper, and war doctrines is great help. Focues tradition which does something useful.

Diplomacy A/D Mid
You need to plan to start Federation. Can dip 2 (one tradition when you can dip).
You can start your own Federation from vassal.
Special types Federations are better, Trade, Science, Dominion that are some nice bonuses.
Unity from Embassay is nice.
You can do some good trades. Leech alloys from allies. Or become curator.
Federation fleet is good.

Adaptability E Late?
Does nothing useful. There is enought habitability in tech. Food is not an issue. You do not resettle that much in 3.x
Does nothing essencial. Better if you are some gestalt.

Harmony D Late
At least edicts and stability translate into better output in science/alloys. If you are not robot you can stack leader span making them practially immortal.
Better with Shared Burden Civic

Mercantile S-D
It depends on your build.
S - You play trade federation
A - Merchant guilds + habitats
B - Corporate
D- nothing of above for some reason
It gives money, which is nice. However money isnt exacly problem most of the times.
You can also get goods from trade consumer benefits. Howeve master artificer civics is better for goods.

SYnchrocity A Mid
It is Harmony but good. Keep good stuff like edict and stability. And remove trash.
And limit it to gestalt depsite premice "we dont limit traditions now" Ehh

Unyeliding C Late
Fleet is better, Supremacy is better, but why not both? It is ok if you play on multiple fronts, and want to stop rogue fleets.

Versality D Late
Does nothing special.
It probably could be avaiable to everyone.

Subterfuge E Late
Does not provide envoys on its own, so you cant really use Subterfuge powers.
 
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Mercantile is probably a good design to look at for tradition trees that are intended to a good go to for every build. For builds that want the tree it's very solid. Even though it's kind of meh for builds that don't want it, since you have to make choices on what trees you drop, that really isn't a problem. I mean, who cares if a tree you don't want to pick up for a build because it's mechanics don't work, isn't that strong. In fact, that actually makes it not feel awful if some of the trees you pass up for a build are easy choices. Sure there should be some compelling choices where you have to choose, but not every choice needs to be a hard choice.

The only thing that really holds mercantile back a little for builds that want it. is that clerks continue to be meh, even for builds where they should be the preferred worker job. Seriously, my megacorp should want clerks before other worker jobs. The other issue is it's interaction with piracy, a system that IMO has been very poorly executed. I idea is need and fits well with the game, but the execution just make it extremely obnoxious. Still miffed that if you don' tree cheese with gates or single tier starbases, you could hit a point where piracy can spawn in a system that has a proverbial death stack and that makes no sense when yo consider how piracy actual works.

I do hope some of the trees get another pass because some of they, while not terrible overall, need work because they have like one or two slots that absolutely carry the tree because the other options are absolutely terrible. Adaptability and harmony seem like good examples of this. They'd probably be complete trash if they former didn't give a building slot and the later didn't give stability and an edict slot. Would love if the devs revisited those and made some spots more useful because that's the main issue, some stuff ends up ultimately not being that useful. With harmony, I'd argue that the leader lifespan just isn't compelling as a choice. Adaptability suffers from the issue where in a vacuum the food stuff seems great on paper, but like the leader lifespan stuff, it just sort of ends up not be that useful.

Subterfuge is kind of the weird tree. As others have mentioned, the tree is well focused and the bonuses are worth investing in if you want to do espionage. The problem is the system is too weak. I think the devs made a mistake when they didn't allow us to use espionage against things like marauders, fallen empires, the Khan, gray tempest, the unbidden, scourge and contingency. Those are all AIs that they could have given us stronger tools to use against because the AI isn't going to get salty over espionage stuff that is obnoxious to play against. On the side where it's against other normal empires be they AI or player controlled, kind of wish the devs leaned a bit further into stuff like steal technology because that was a really solid idea. It's powerful without being super annoying to play against. Would have love to see something like embezzle funds or smuggle resources and have those work similar to steal technology, where you succeeding doesn't mean that the other side ends up getting absolutely screwed. If I smuggle out say minor artifacts, those could be generate from scratch and not taken for the store that a player has. Subterfuge is that rare tree that is in very good shape and is just waiting for the system that uses it to be in a spot where the tree is worth getting.
 
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Franton

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Subterfuge is well used to get techs you want, as well as tech you don't want. Techs you don't want stay in your tech card selection as partially researched and can be left there neglected forever. This improves what techs you do get and helps beelining. Swarmer missiles no longer clogging up the engineering tree is a great advantage.
Funny how one botched system fixes another botched system (in this case the engineering tree being overloaded with way too many uninteresting low level techs) by using it in a way it was not intended to... :rolleyes:
 

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It's also the fact that homeworld industrial output is superior to any other early colony you can get, since you're not fighting against habitability penalties and are benefiting from the captial-world stability buff for the ~3% output of all jobs, which is bad for workers but good for specialists. The two alloy-jobs-per-district thus halves the mineral investment and energy upkeep cost, which in turn means fewer pops needed for the upkeep/less time needed to do it. It's a non-direct effeciency boost, but it is a pop-efficiency boost.

I get what you mean, though, so just adding a note to your note (which I agree with in principle).
As long as the normal empire doesn't need more than 2 metallurgists more than artisans, then they are completely the same in terms of production and pop efficiency, was the point I was trying to make.

Comparing a capital to a dedicated industrial world, assuming 80% habitability: -10% job output from habitability, -3% job output from missing stability, and +10% pop upkeep from habitability. So per metallurgist, you are losing 0.39 alloys, 0.2 food, and 0.1 CG (assuming decent conditions). Converting to ECE, that's 2.35. The 20% reduced job upkeep gives you 1.2 minerals back, so you are only losing net 1.15 ECE per pop (EDIT: or with Catalytic, you get 1.8 food back, so losing 0.55 ECE per pop). You'd need more than 90% habitability before the industrial world gives more production (EDIT: or with Catalytic, just above 85% habitability would put you over)

Sweet. The consensus is changed by just one more.
To clarify, I still think it's a severely underpowered civic, one of the most useless in the game. Just that there might actually be a specific constructed scenario in which it has the potential to be useful :p

I'll add that while Hydroponics isn't a guaranteed first, you also don't necessarily need it to be. Play with it when you try the timing, but I've found that waiting to build any more starbases- and thus hydroponics bays- usually waits until the third Tradition unlocks, to get that 50% alloy saving for the starbase upgrading. That's 200 alloys if you wait for your first three, which is enough to cover the solar panel costs of those two starbases. Then you use your other alloys not-already-spent on expansion to build your next 4 starbases that you get with that point of the unyielding. The reason not to build the first two immediately is that your alloy budget is tight in the starting game as-is, especially if you've got rapid construction ship expansion or invested in more than 2 science ships- and the time it takes to work off the 200 alloy deficit could be time you could get those other starbase components built and running.


But- and this is why it's hydroponics doesn't necessarily need to be first- it takes a few years to get to that point, and by the time it does you're going to have the better part of another year of the starbase-building and solar panel investments. Which, in and of themselves, are already useful for freeing up homeworld pops to better jobs like science, to let you research that society tech more quickly, etc. etc..

The hydroponics bay tech definitely gatekeeps the start of your alloy expansion economy, but only after you'd have already built the starbase. Which, with unyielding, isn't (quite) an opening move, and is still a better alloy-economy than, well, not embracing catalytic hydroponic bays.
Hmm, if you don't have hydroponics then the math changes on waiting for the tradition to upgrade or not. Without hydroponics you only produce 11 resources, so to reach the 500 ECE value of the upgrade, you need 45.5 months. Nearly 4 years, so probably worth waiting if you are on the tree at all. But of course like you mention this only matters if you have the alloys available: If you need more science ships or another outpost, those should generally come first.
 
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Tamwin5

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@DeanTheDull So, got around to doing a few runs. Here are three run-throughs 12 years in (10 was just a little too short imo). First one is going unyielding, second one expansion, and third one going two into expansion (bonus pop and pop growth) then swapping to unyielding. I probably should have done them all on the same start, but forgot to take a day 1 save. I forgot to swap to manufacturing focus in the first game, so I didn't do it in the other two. Of note is that in the mixed one, I've got 4 starbases about to finish their last construction (two solar panels, two hydroponics), so it's about to have a chunk more resources.
12 years Unyielding.png

12 years Expansion.png

12 years Mixed.png

I think just going fully down the unyielding tree is a mistake. The extra starbases and reduced upgrade cost are great, but I really don't have the minerals to be building fortresses for extra unity, and the other two picks are literally worthless unless I'm at war (or getting claimed on because I'm about to be). So that means you either A) start unyielding, then swap to another tree (Discovery, Supremacy, or Prosperity), or start Expansion, grab the two pop ones, then grab Unyielding down to the reduced upgrade, then go back to expansion to finish it off. At the point in time where you do have enough extra mineral income, you can always dip back into unyielding to grab the perk.

I think the best way to play this is probably Devouring Swarm + Catalytic, start unyielding into Supremacy. You'll be poised for a strong rush at around year 20ish. Plus, Devouring swarm purging will get you a lot more jobless food to fuel your fleets. For a more peaceful/tech route, it's either expansion into Unyielding or Unyielding into discovery.

Another one I'd like to try would be One mind + traditional pops, and see how it feels accelerating the unity. This play through I used Intelligent, rapid breeders, natural engineers, unruly, and weak.
 
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DeanTheDull

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@DeanTheDull So, got around to doing a few runs. Here are three run-throughs 12 years in (10 was just a little too short imo). First one is going unyielding, second one expansion, and third one going two into expansion (bonus pop and pop growth) then swapping to unyielding. I probably should have done them all on the same start, but forgot to take a day 1 save. I forgot to swap to manufacturing focus in the first game, so I didn't do it in the other two. Of note is that in the mixed one, I've got 4 starbases about to finish their last construction (two solar panels, two hydroponics), so it's about to have a chunk more resources.

Interesting. We'd want to see your homeworld and colony set-ups as well, to see the pop-job allocation, but you definitely seem in a stronger place in the first as far as universal considerations go. Despite having fewer planets at this point due to RNG, it also has a stronger resource economy in most respects at this point, and fewer pops dedicated to upkeep (both admin and jobs to support them). The mixed route will soon have a higher income, in food/energy, but the first route is likely about to start making its alloy return on investments whereas the mixed hasn't even started for half of its lot.


But just twelve years in is before the payoff kicks in- you're cutting off before the investment matures. The unyielding catalytic starbases only pay for their own alloys after about 7 years, so you're only just hitting the repayment time with some of your first starbases (those that completed at year 5, assuming bought with unyielding), while that plus +20 science you have hasn't had time to mature into it's edge-over-time. +20 science would take about 8 years to provide an additional T1 2000 pt tech as well, so the better part of a decade for your first tech advantage.

Part of the alloy-production synergy is that by the time your starbases have all paid for their own alloys and then another round to give you the fleets you could have bought instead of a starbase, you've also had time to receive a few more of the early military techs, meaning that not only are you getting your fleets at the point your alloy economy is reaping the benefits of overcoming cost-of-investment and now able to afford fleet attrition, but you'll have higher-quality corvette fleets from not having to focus early on on the physics/engineering economy techs. They'd both be coming into play at about the same time between years 20/25, but not by year 12.


I think just going fully down the unyielding tree is a mistake. The extra starbases and reduced upgrade cost are great, but I really don't have the minerals to be building fortresses for extra unity, and the other two picks are literally worthless unless I'm at war (or getting claimed on because I'm about to be). So that means you either A) start unyielding, then swap to another tree (Discovery, Supremacy, or Prosperity), or start Expansion, grab the two pop ones, then grab Unyielding down to the reduced upgrade, then go back to expansion to finish it off. At the point in time where you do have enough extra mineral income, you can always dip back into unyielding to grab the perk.

I think the best way to play this is probably Devouring Swarm + Catalytic, start unyielding into Supremacy. You'll be poised for a strong rush at around year 20ish. Plus, Devouring swarm purging will get you a lot more jobless food to fuel your fleets. For a more peaceful/tech route, it's either expansion into Unyielding or Unyielding into discovery.

Another one I'd like to try would be One mind + traditional pops, and see how it feels accelerating the unity. This play through I used Intelligent, rapid breeders, natural engineers, unruly, and weak.

All fair points. I personally do the 'one tradition at a time' thing for the same reason I don't meta the market function with monthly trade- personal peculiarity- but the point of breaking up the traditions is on-point. I'd recommend the unyielding-then-expansion first, since Unyielding would get you your effective productive pops online earlier (3 no-upkeep/no-admin sprawl per starbase vis-a-vis the max 2 pops and 7 admin sprawl for the starting colonies). It probably wouldn't be worthwhile to delay your guaranteed worlds, since pop growth would probably occur before you got the colonization pop tradition, but it might be worthwhile to do so on your further colony worlds even if that's just keeping the colony ship parked over the planet for a year.

Devouring swarm is the better hive-mind genocide civic for sure. Terravore has its role in making better use of conquests that otherwise bloat your economy unproductively, but that's far more mid-game to the swarm's early game catalytic food synergy.
 

Tamwin5

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Interesting. We'd want to see your homeworld and colony set-ups as well, to see the pop-job allocation, but you definitely seem in a stronger place in the first as far as universal considerations go. Despite having fewer planets at this point due to RNG, it also has a stronger resource economy in most respects at this point, and fewer pops dedicated to upkeep (both admin and jobs to support them). The mixed route will soon have a higher income, in food/energy, but the first route is likely about to start making its alloy return on investments whereas the mixed hasn't even started for half of its lot.


But just twelve years in is before the payoff kicks in- you're cutting off before the investment matures. The unyielding catalytic starbases only pay for their own alloys after about 7 years, so you're only just hitting the repayment time with some of your first starbases (those that completed at year 5, assuming bought with unyielding), while that plus +20 science you have hasn't had time to mature into it's edge-over-time. +20 science would take about 8 years to provide an additional T1 2000 pt tech as well, so the better part of a decade for your first tech advantage.

Part of the alloy-production synergy is that by the time your starbases have all paid for their own alloys and then another round to give you the fleets you could have bought instead of a starbase, you've also had time to receive a few more of the early military techs, meaning that not only are you getting your fleets at the point your alloy economy is reaping the benefits of overcoming cost-of-investment and now able to afford fleet attrition, but you'll have higher-quality corvette fleets from not having to focus early on on the physics/engineering economy techs. They'd both be coming into play at about the same time between years 20/25, but not by year 12.




All fair points. I personally do the 'one tradition at a time' thing for the same reason I don't meta the market function with monthly trade- personal peculiarity- but the point of breaking up the traditions is on-point. I'd recommend the unyielding-then-expansion first, since Unyielding would get you your effective productive pops online earlier (3 no-upkeep/no-admin sprawl per starbase vis-a-vis the max 2 pops and 7 admin sprawl for the starting colonies). It probably wouldn't be worthwhile to delay your guaranteed worlds, since pop growth would probably occur before you got the colonization pop tradition, but it might be worthwhile to do so on your further colony worlds even if that's just keeping the colony ship parked over the planet for a year.

Devouring swarm is the better hive-mind genocide civic for sure. Terravore has its role in making better use of conquests that otherwise bloat your economy unproductively, but that's far more mid-game to the swarm's early game catalytic food synergy.
Honestly, I don't think the third one is in a worse spot. If I had less planets in the Expansion/mixed I'd be doing better economy wise, since the first couple of pops on a planet are generally Spawning drone and synapse drones (which both not only don't produce resources, but also have high upkeep). If I didn't get those extra 2 planets (which are only 60% hab, btw), then I'd be down 6 pops and 10 unity, but have an extra 30+ resources. I'd also have an extra ~800 minerals, so I'd have the extra lab on my capital and thus the same tech (would still be slightly ahead with the unyielding, but same monthly production). So I do think that even with the unluckier start, the Expansion then Unyielding would be in a better spot.

One of the reasons I decided to try the split is that I found I was sitting around with more starbase capacity then I had outposts to upgrade. Getting pop growth first also means that is extra production you are getting that you wouldn't otherwise have, as opposed to just getting the same production online sooner. Pure expansion is definitely weaker than either though, Unyielding is strong early for hives.

I'm going to do another two playthroughs, on the same start this time. One starting Unyielding, the other Expansion, both swapping after two picks in. I'm also going to use the +15% unity civic this time (was using Strength of Legions, to see if the start worked with a "do nothing" modifier). I suspect the extra unity will make going Expansion first better than otherwise.

As for terravore, there is actually another reason to go for it. Fully consuming a planet counts as the "destroy planet" menace goal, so you can easily shoot up the levels and get the bonuses faster (and without needing to go to war, though you probably will). It also pairs very well with the doomsday origin, since you don't need any food on your capital, love the extra energy/minerals/alloys production, and the bonus habitability from Lithoid is useful on your capital.

More in general though, starting with Unyielding means you can go one of two paths: Rely on your beefier starbases to protect you and focus hard on tech, or go for supremacy and take advantage of two warfare focused tradition trees. If you are going for the military rush, pairing that with devouring swarm just makes sense.
 

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People who want to eat their cake and have it too annoy me.
Well that is an uncalled for ad hominem. This is your own assumption.
Well, if not micromangement by your definition, then definitely minmaxing and cheese. People would take Expansion and Discovery for the early bonuses and ditch them later. If you make a choice, accept the consequences of that choice.
Stellaris is a strategy game and traditions and their perks have some effect on your overall strategy. Because your are locked into a tree once you pick it this creates a problem when you have to adapt to a changing situation. I never said it should be possible to just change them on the fly, that is why I mentioned EU3 in that game you can swap national ideas but you suffer a big stability hit. For bigger more diverse countries this stability hit is harder to overcome so there's also some balancing going on for bigger and smaller countries. If traditions could be changed over time (again I mean long term changes) you could also link traditions to factions or maybe specific leaders you pick or even pops that used to have a different tradtion if you conquer some planets. If traditions would be locked you cannot link it to other game mechanics without punishing the player when factions, leaders, etc. take you in a direction you do not want to go.

The risk of not locking in traditions could be that every space empire feels bland because it is likely that they all end up with the same 'meta' traditions. But this is already the case now. I think Stellaris might be a bit more enjoyable if every space empire had a bit more character that just the perks and the bonusses from traits, civics, etc. Therefore I think that character that makes an empire unique in some way could be formed by a unique combination of leaders, factions, pops and player decisions. For example if you always play on the defensive why would your empire ever develop a tradition that is based on fleet action? I think you should still be able to pick supremacy but that would then clash in some way with your admirals or leaders and your factions.

If we ever want traditions to be a bit more than just bonusses they need to be linked to other game mechanics. For that process to be 'fair' the player should still have the last say if the game steers your traditions in a way that is not beneficial to you from a strategic perspective.
 

Ryika

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Stellaris is a strategy game and traditions and their perks have some effect on your overall strategy. Because your are locked into a tree once you pick it this creates a problem when you have to adapt to a changing situation. I never said it should be possible to just change them on the fly, that is why I mentioned EU3 in that game you can swap national ideas but you suffer a big stability hit. For bigger more diverse countries this stability hit is harder to overcome so there's also some balancing going on for bigger and smaller countries. If traditions could be changed over time (again I mean long term changes) you could also link traditions to factions or maybe specific leaders you pick or even pops that used to have a different tradtion if you conquer some planets. If traditions would be locked you cannot link it to other game mechanics without punishing the player when factions, leaders, etc. take you in a direction you do not want to go.
It seems like you want traditions to be something completely different from what we have now, but I think most people are pretty happy with how the system exists at the moment.

The risk of not locking in traditions could be that every space empire feels bland because it is likely that they all end up with the same 'meta' traditions. But this is already the case now. I think Stellaris might be a bit more enjoyable if every space empire had a bit more character that just the perks and the bonusses from traits, civics, etc. Therefore I think that character that makes an empire unique in some way could be formed by a unique combination of leaders, factions, pops and player decisions. For example if you always play on the defensive why would your empire ever develop a tradition that is based on fleet action? I think you should still be able to pick supremacy but that would then clash in some way with your admirals or leaders and your factions.
I think the main reason we end up with the "same" traditions is that the selection is still very limited.

As for your example though, yes, why would a defensive empire develop those traditions? The parallel question is, why would a player who always plays defensively pick the Supremacy tree? Presumably, because it buffs fleets in any scenario and is thus relevant to any empire once they've run out of more important traditions. This seems to me like it's more a clash between how the traditions work, and how it is themed - if it gave bonuses only to conquest-related situations, surely the "defensive" player would not pick it, and thus the idea that you would not develop these traditions would be upheld.

More of a side issue, but the problem of traditions "leading the way" is a direct continuation of a problem that originates in pop and government ethics: "Why would an Empire that has been peaceful and in good standing with its neighbors suddenly turn around and conquer them just because the player has finished their tech rush and now wants to make use of their advantage?"

The way it works right now does not really make thematic sense, because there is just no reasonable way for the ethics to passively drift into a direction you want (you can support the faction, but it doesn't really do much and costs a hefty amount of influence) - they just follow the things you do, and even then they only do it to some extend. That's the main reason why you pick tradition trees that don't fit your "past", because you're leading the future in the direction you want, while your empire hasn't caught up to your new plans yet. If anything, that is what should be addressed.

If we ever want traditions to be a bit more than just bonusses they need to be linked to other game mechanics. For that process to be 'fair' the player should still have the last say if the game steers your traditions in a way that is not beneficial to you from a strategic perspective.
Yes, "if" we want that. Personally, I think the system is fine as it is, since we already have systems interactions between governing ethics, pop ethics and factions. The systems just aren't fleshed out very well, and desperately need a rework.
 

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It seems like you want traditions to be something completely different from what we have now, but I think most people are pretty happy with how the system exists at the moment.
Is it that different though? The change would mostly depend on how much game mechanics you would be willing to tie into traditions. There are many different ways this could be handled but the main problem is that traditions are mostly static perks, nothing more. They aren't that interesting to interact with and don't work thematically like you said. I don't think it matters that much how people feel about traditions specifically because I think traditions are only a small part of this game. I think the overall attitude is more important. While the game has positive reviews most of the expansions do not.

While traditions are probably viewed as okay to my knowledge because I rarely see people complaining about them I still think that they are a good example of why a lot of mechanics in Stellaris are bland and don't add that much to the game. Traditions don't work well from a gameplay perspective because they prevent the player from adapting their long term strategy based on their unique situation. Traditions also make little sense in being some set of values that a certain culture has held in high regard. Most interesting and "game changing" choices are somewhat isolated from most mechanics you interact with more frequently. In Stellaris the most impactful choices you can make are your origin, civics, traditions and ascension perks but the game isn't set up in a way to adapt to a changing situation. Take the national ideas in EU3 for example. They are mostly bonusses that you pick too but all of them come with random events that provide you with a choice that often changes your domestic policy sliders. The result here is that you sometimes have choose between long term gain (policy slider positions that you want to have in the distant future) or a short term gain (not getting a stability hit, or getting some cash, getting a temporary bonus). It could help to make the game feel more alive.
I think the main reason we end up with the "same" traditions is that the selection is still very limited.
Yes that is definetely a reason that contributes to that. But traditions being locked in as they are picked exacerbates this. For example the tradition that boosts intelligence gathering gameplay is already one of the weaker traditions because espionage isn't that powerful. Picking this tradition over others gets even worse because of the opportunity cost of spending one of your precious tradtion slots on this forever. So even when you get into a situation in wich espionage might not be the worst strategy, it is still very costly to pick the tradition because you also pay for it with a slot.
As for your example though, yes, why would a defensive empire develop those traditions? The parallel question is, why would a player who always plays defensively pick the Supremacy tree? Presumably, because it buffs fleets in any scenario and is thus relevant to any empire once they've run out of more important traditions. This seems to me like it's more a clash between how the traditions work, and how it is themed - if it gave bonuses only to conquest-related situations, surely the "defensive" player would not pick it, and thus the idea that you would not develop these traditions would be upheld.

More of a side issue, but the problem of traditions "leading the way" is a direct continuation of a problem that originates in pop and government ethics: "Why would an Empire that has been peaceful and in good standing with its neighbors suddenly turn around and conquer them just because the player has finished their tech rush and now wants to make use of their advantage?"
I never said that traditions should be leading the way, I said that they should in some capacity reflect to what the player is doing because then they would actually be traditions. I agree my critique is also partly that it is a clash of how they are themed and how they work, but lets not forget the opportunity cost which makes 'bad' traditions even worse. As for the theme, this problem spans multiple mechanics in this game. Factions, leaders, sectors, pops, strata, traditions are just some examples. Some of these mechanics in this game that can be ignored partially and some even entirely. So what value do they add to the game in that case? The only interesting choice that traditions provide is which bonus you want to have at what time and which traditions you want to end up with. I'm suggesting that maybe tying up some of those dead end mechanics in a way that the potentially can create more intersting decisions for the player would make for a more interesting strategy game.
The way it works right now does not really make thematic sense, because there is just no reasonable way for the ethics to passively drift into a direction you want (you can support the faction, but it doesn't really do much and costs a hefty amount of influence) - they just follow the things you do, and even then they only do it to some extend. That's the main reason why you pick tradition trees that don't fit your "past", because you're leading the future in the direction you want, while your empire hasn't caught up to your new plans yet. If anything, that is what should be addressed.
Isn't this partly proof of my point that traditions are flawed thematically? I don't know if ethics should only drift to what you want. Maybe they should drift to what you are doing instead, but what you are doing could also include picking traditions and many other things. If you would pick supremacy for example but end up only building fortresses maybe there could some random events in that game that are centered arround this conflict of interests. Perhaps there could be a slightly higher chance to get governors that give the ship build cost reduction bonus or other things that only slightly nudge the game into a direction. I think the main goal of ethics was to give your empire some personality but how can they do so if there are only two positions in each of them and most of their effects on other mechanics can be ignored. Compared to domestic policies of EU3, Stellaris' ehtics are much more shallow. Finally if traditions are to be understood as the future direction of your empire they really shouldn't be called traditions and I agree that that could be adressed but it has to be adressed at a gameplay level too.
Yes, "if" we want that. Personally, I think the system is fine as it is, since we already have systems interactions between governing ethics, pop ethics and factions. The systems just aren't fleshed out very well, and desperately need a rework.
Traditions in its current form is just another thing that adds to how bland this game eventually is. I don't know what the solution could be, that is for the devs to figure out. The examples I give are to show the flaws that the game has, older paradox titles didn't have those flaws to these extremes. Being bland has been a critique of Stellaris ever since its initial release and nearly 6 years later not that much has changed. Sure there's lot more content but it never moved that far away from stacking percentage or numerical bonusses in many of its exisiting and newly added mechanics. In the case of Stellaris I think re-configuring existing mechanics would be far more preferable than adding new ones. I came across this Stellaris review a year ago but I think a lot of it's critique still stands today.