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Franton

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Espionage is basically a super cheap 10% research speed bonus at the very least via the backdoor event from Steal Technology with an asset.
Is that how it works? I don't have the DLC and therefore can't check myself, but my understanding so far was that you could steal a tech (or just some progress for a specific tech) that you don't already have. Given that I am typically done with the tech tree by 2300, that wouldn't be useful to me.
Did they speed up raiding?
Can't say, I never used it until last week, and by the time I took the perk my 50k fleets (10 battleships and 1 titan) were stealing 3-5 pops per month from a single planet. I noticed though that apparently the raiding stops at 2 pops, not at 1 as the tooltip states.
 
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sillyrobot

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Wait, you get a 10% research speed bonus from espionage? I thought I only get a small amount of tech points. How long does this last and is it stackable if you are getting it from several empires?
It lasts 2 years and isn't stackable. You can't activate it on more than one empire at a time. You need a specific type of asset (which is destroyed in the process) and decryption decently higher than their encryption. And you need to repair your spy network afterwards, of course.
 
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DeanTheDull

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S: Discovery, Expansion
A: Domination, Supremacy
B: Prosperity, Mercantile
C: Adaptability, Versatility
D: Diplomacy, Subterfuge
E: Unyielding
F: Synchronicity
G: Harmony

When it comes to Unyielding, it will likely never see use unless you're sandwiched between genocidal empires. Remember, the best defense is a good offense.
Or are a Gestalt, in which case it jumps straight to the top of the pile, and certainly above Expansion, Prosperity, and Adaptability.

For Gestalts, Starbases aren't just a defense, but a core part of their early worker drone economy. Gestalts get solar panels and the hydroponics bays, which in turns means that every Tier 1 starbase is worth about 3 worker drones for about 350 alloys (2 energy, 1+ farmer). With modest inevitable expansion to 4 starbases for normal empires, that's 12 pops at 1500 alloys, or effectively 1 pop per 125 alloys. That's a steal in the early game, and it takes alloy-and-energy eating robot factories the better part of the first century to start catching up on it. Those nominal pops- who don't require any upkeep besides 4 energy for the hydroponic bays- are producing 40 food/48 energy, which is 48 far, far more energy than early organics can garner thru trade.

Unyielding doubles that early-game benchmark to 8 starbases for 24 pops for 2100 alloys (the modules don't get 50% off), or 1 pop per 87.5 alloys. That's 24 pops at a time in the game where you basically don't even have 50 pops unless you are fleet-blitzing a neighbor, and they're producing 80 food/96 energy.

That's a very substantial basic resource income this early in the game, and basically frees up your early-game/capital world energy and farmer drones to be immediately repurposed into mining, scientist, and alloy drones, limited only by your mineral economy. These additional pops increase your total numbers of specialist by far more than any early-game bonus you could get to your starting limited numbers.

And that's without looking at how the base unity functions without needing a job. 3 unity for 1 energy upkeep and 400 minerals is a very good early game use of building slots you may well not be able to make use of on early worlds. Unyielding is a first tradition that gets you your second and third tradition far faster, even as it beats other strong civics at their normal best aspects.

Expansion's +1 pop per colony? You'd need 12 colonies to match the pops, and gestalts are affect less because they just put their first pop into pop assembly. You're just as likely to get the

Discovery and Prosperity's +1X% science/specialist output? You're getting 100+% science and specialist output from the number of energy/farmer drones you move into the jobs.

Adaptive's food upkeep/free building slot? Unyielding gives +40 food potential at the point in the game when you don't have the pops to work 40 food of farmer jobs, and gives that empty (and for some time useless) building slot into a 3-unity-per-energy conversion slot with the base buff.



But it takes alloys, I hear. And yes. It's not an early rush expansion. But it does combo with the civic like, say, catalytic converter, where the food from starbases will cover the T1 starbase cost in about a decade, and enable higher-than-mineral alloy production for the first 50 years or so. Or Phototrophic trait, which lets 8 starbases cover the food upkeep of 160 pops without needing a single food working drone or food-focused world. Or just generally turning on the specialist-drone focus policy, letting your starbase economy cover the worker-drone jobs while getting specialist % boosts early. Etc.
 
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Tamwin5

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Or are a Gestalt, in which case it jumps straight to the top of the pile, and certainly above Expansion, Prosperity, and Adaptability.

For Gestalts, Starbases aren't just a defense, but a core part of their early worker drone economy. Gestalts get solar panels and the hydroponics bays, which in turns means that every Tier 1 starbase is worth about 3 worker drones for about 350 alloys (2 energy, 1+ farmer). With modest inevitable expansion to 4 starbases for normal empires, that's 12 pops at 1500 alloys, or effectively 1 pop per 125 alloys. That's a steal in the early game, and it takes alloy-and-energy eating robot factories the better part of the first century to start catching up on it. Those nominal pops- who don't require any upkeep besides 4 energy for the hydroponic bays- are producing 40 food/48 energy, which is 48 far, far more energy than early organics can garner thru trade.

Unyielding doubles that early-game benchmark to 8 starbases for 24 pops for 2100 alloys (the modules don't get 50% off), or 1 pop per 87.5 alloys. That's 24 pops at a time in the game where you basically don't even have 50 pops unless you are fleet-blitzing a neighbor, and they're producing 80 food/96 energy.

That's a very substantial basic resource income this early in the game, and basically frees up your early-game/capital world energy and farmer drones to be immediately repurposed into mining, scientist, and alloy drones, limited only by your mineral economy. These additional pops increase your total numbers of specialist by far more than any early-game bonus you could get to your starting limited numbers.

And that's without looking at how the base unity functions without needing a job. 3 unity for 1 energy upkeep and 400 minerals is a very good early game use of building slots you may well not be able to make use of on early worlds. Unyielding is a first tradition that gets you your second and third tradition far faster, even as it beats other strong civics at their normal best aspects.

Expansion's +1 pop per colony? You'd need 12 colonies to match the pops, and gestalts are affect less because they just put their first pop into pop assembly. You're just as likely to get the

Discovery and Prosperity's +1X% science/specialist output? You're getting 100+% science and specialist output from the number of energy/farmer drones you move into the jobs.

Adaptive's food upkeep/free building slot? Unyielding gives +40 food potential at the point in the game when you don't have the pops to work 40 food of farmer jobs, and gives that empty (and for some time useless) building slot into a 3-unity-per-energy conversion slot with the base buff.



But it takes alloys, I hear. And yes. It's not an early rush expansion. But it does combo with the civic like, say, catalytic converter, where the food from starbases will cover the T1 starbase cost in about a decade, and enable higher-than-mineral alloy production for the first 50 years or so. Or Phototrophic trait, which lets 8 starbases cover the food upkeep of 160 pops without needing a single food working drone or food-focused world. Or just generally turning on the specialist-drone focus policy, letting your starbase economy cover the worker-drone jobs while getting specialist % boosts early. Etc.
Huh, I hadn't considered Unyielding as a gestalt eco choice, but it makes a lot of sense. With the faster colony establishment, growth rate, and the extra pop from colonies I do think that expansion might beat out unyielding as a first pick though. Probably depends on how many planets you have available. Would be interesting to see the math on that. Being able to switch to specialist focus makes it even more interesting.

Another question I had (although this one I can answer myself) is if it's worth waiting on upgrading starbases until you get the third pick (-50% upgrade cost). An eco starwort produces 20 resources (6x2 solar panels + 10 hydroponics - 2 upkeep) per month. The perk saves 100 alloys per upgrade. If we assume an alloy is worth roughly 5 energy, then it takes 25 months to pay off. So if you are less than 25 months from getting the -50% upgrade cost, wait.

I'm still not sure any of this is worth running catalytic though.
 

15JTaylor

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Expansion is such a great first pick. If you wait to long, its advantages are heavily nerfed. So almost consistantly the first pick. If I'm doing a trade heavy build, obviously mercantile first.

My second pick is usually prosperity, even before the update. Unless I'm doing a trade heavy build, then I'll put in discovery or expansion.

My third pick is discovery. Some of its bonuses is only useful early on. And by this point, it's not early game. But the research upkeep reduction is so nice to have.

My fourth pick starts differing alot. Maybe supremacy, maybe Germany, etc.

Diplomacy I start down after the first tradition tree is finished. And I pick up enough to start a federation and then start a new tree. I wont finish it until after discovery, prosperity, expansion, and harmany/supremacy is finished.
 

DeanTheDull

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Huh, I hadn't considered Unyielding as a gestalt eco choice, but it makes a lot of sense. With the faster colony establishment, growth rate, and the extra pop from colonies I do think that expansion might beat out unyielding as a first pick though. Probably depends on how many planets you have available. Would be interesting to see the math on that. Being able to switch to specialist focus makes it even more interesting.

Given how hive-minds work, expansion is actually slower expansion. Expansion is better as a second tradition, if ever.

Hivemind colony ships are gated in the early game more by food than alloys. Gestalts have greater alloy potential than normal organics, since they don't need consumer goods, but for hive minds it's heavily offset by food, with 500 vs 200 food requirements. You need more drones, working more time, to get the food to afford a colony ship, which is why AI gestalts are usually so delayed in getting colony ships started. Expansion doesn't help that, and actually complicates it since the first job a second pop plays after the food-hungry spawning pool is the also-food hungry coordinator drone (to offset the admin cap of having the planet. Those two pops have a -7 food job upkeep- not including the pop upkeep- or one farmer on your homeworld.

+4 starbases with hydroponics bays blows the food limit out of the water. +40 food a month nearly pays for a colony ship's food per year, whereas it'd take over 6 homeworld farmer drones to match that output... which would be two districts in mineral cost (the biggest early-game chokepoint) and 6 pops (in an empire that has maybe 30-ish), pops not working science or alloys instead. This is even more significant with Tree of Life, which has an even higher food cost.

The colony development speed is marginal, going from 2 years and 10 months (58 months) to- with a 25% boost- about 46 months, or a 12 months savings. Better than nothing, but if a year's worth of colony ship food a year lets you settle a year early, it negates. If it lets you afford the colony ship two or more years early, it's not only far superior, but even offsets the 10% growth rate. 10% growth is- early on- worth .3 growth a month, or +3.6 growth a year. Getting a colony set up a year earlier with base growth is worth 3 growth a month, or +36 growth. You'd need a decade for the 10% growth to match the benefit of each year Unyielding helps you settle earlier... and that's if you don't just take the 10% growth tradition before then anyway as a second tree.

And this is without mathing in the implication of hive pop assembly. For most empires, growth is most decisive early game because of how long it takes for pop-assembly to come on line. But pop assembly is immediate as soon as the first pop for gestalts, so the marginal impact for total planetary growth is something like half that for hive minds. (3.3 is a 10% growth, but 3.3 + 2 , or 5.3, is only 6% growth- which itself will be caught up if you take the Expansion tradition second, well before most planets are acruing much natural growth.)



Another question I had (although this one I can answer myself) is if it's worth waiting on upgrading starbases until you get the third pick (-50% upgrade cost). An eco starwort produces 20 resources (6x2 solar panels + 10 hydroponics - 2 upkeep) per month. The perk saves 100 alloys per upgrade. If we assume an alloy is worth roughly 5 energy, then it takes 25 months to pay off. So if you are less than 25 months from getting the -50% upgrade cost, wait.

Considering your Hive mind's unity potential from coordiantor drones, if you go Unyielding first that's basically what happens.

The 100 alloys per upgrade amounts to about 300 alloys for the first three starbases you'd normally get (once you have enough stations to build to 4 starbases rather than the starting 3), and at that point of the game the 300 alloys are what would enable you to get 6 starbase modules up as soon as you can. The hydroponics bays are actually more useful than the solar panels, as they have a higher effective job output (10 to 6 vs 6 to 6), and let you basically immediately transfer all your homeworld farmer drones to othe drones, which likely increases your science and alloys more than if you freed up the generators.




I'm still not sure any of this is worth running catalytic though.

Nah, Catalytic Converter is busted in the early-game with unyielding. It's basically worker-free alloy upkeep.

Most analysis on Catalytic vs non-catalytic focuses on later-game productivity ratios per pop of farmers vs miners when the tech upgrades come into play, but that misses the economic advantage that matters more- early game pop utilization.

In gestalt or normal empires, the biggest early-game chokepoint of the starting decade- the factor that prevents you from being able to maximize scientists and alloys- is minerals more than anything else. Your starting mineral income is low, and you need hundreds of minerals to building anything. Meanwhile, both scientists and alloy workers are very hungry in mineral upkeep (either directly with gestalts, or to fund alloy/CG production as normals), with the worse effect that they lower your mineral income at the point of the game where any income lowering also delays your building investments by months or years. When every industrial district or science lab build directly or indirectly lowers your mineral income by 12- the cost of upkeep for the alloy/CG production to support it- that can slow your economic rollout by months or years.

Catalytic converter is great because it offload your starting-game alloy upkeep to a source that doesn't require workers, thus leaving more minerals to fund your science game. Even at 9-food-a-converter, 4 starbases with 4 hydroponic bays can cover the upkeep of 4 catalytic converters on your capital, for a very healthy early game +12 alloys. As empires usually start at +12 alloys, that's basically an early-game doubling of your alloy production economy without needing a single worker playing upkeep. With Unyielding, 8 starbases can cover the cost of 8 alloy workers for +24 alloys. Hydroponics-cataltyic starbases pays themselves off in about a decade, and then gives excess alloys (compared to what you'd otherwise have) every decade therafter.

This is in addition to shifting your early game war-science economy. As you need far less minerals to support an alloy economy, you can focus on early-game corvette boosting techs rather than mineral economy techs as your starting picks. And because your alloy upkeep is food, society research- not engineering or physics- becomes the basis for improving your alloy upkeep economy. Meaning, again, that you're freer to prioritize engineering onto war rather than alloy-supporting economics.

Combined, this gives you a starting economy that can afford both fleets without needing to increase the worker upkeep base per district, and use those saved workers as science for a science boost, and enjoys greater tech pathing efficiency letting them bee-line to corvette techs.

All together, catalytic-gestalts can pretty reliably crush enemies by year 25, as your starbase hydroponics bays finish paying themselves off and start funding an overwhelming alloy economy for corvettes who have had time to get multiple early military techs from the scientists afforded by not having to pay the alloy upkeep in miner-pops. Those conquests, in turn, become the basis of your snowball, whether the pops are conventional conquests or hive-mind livestock (at which point they become part of the gameplay loop, as captured livestock provide the food to expand alloy production for more fleets to capture more food).

(Because empires are generally still relatively equivalent at this point, this will often be more about rivalry wars... which means a chance to get several hundred influence for the resource edicts which you otherwise wouldn't be able to afford, giving you even more worker efficiency to afford more scientists and alloys...)


All this is missed by the usual 'well, fifty-sixty years in, with all the economy techs, miners are marginally more efficient per pop than catalytic converters.' That's missing the forest for a tree. Catalytic plays it's gameplay role in the first 30-odd years, and it's a war-economy civic that lets you start your snow-ball far faster than a typical bloom strategy.
 
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LayZboy

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Most analysis on Catalytic vs non-catalytic focuses on later-game productivity ratios per pop of farmers vs miners when the tech upgrades come into play, but that misses the economic advantage that matters more- early game pop utilization.

That's because most early game minerals comes from space mining, not planet mining. They are also a pop free source of alloy input and provide far more than food bays on starbases ever can.
 

DeanTheDull

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That's because most early game minerals comes from space mining, not planet mining.

RNG dependent and unreliable, as well as neglecting that minerals are needed to cover alloys and science.

At your first 9 systems of expansion, which is realistic in your first two decades or so, you get +1 starbase. That's 4 starbases and 10 systems worth of mineral income, or 8 starbases and 10 systems worth of mineral income if you take Unyielding.

For normal empires, your alloy budget support is Total Minerals - Science Upkeep minerals. Minerals in a system can be in the double digits or, more often, 0, depending on RNG. Let's be very generous and say that you average 6 minerals a system, for 60 minerals. As homeworld alloys and CG output both take 6 minerals per job, you can cover the upkeep of 10 alloys and CG total. (Scientist jobs take 2 CG, so you can support half the scientists of alloy workers per mineral share.) If you take 4 alloy workers (12 alloys/month), you are having 6 CG for 3 scientists (12 science).

And that's on the generous mineral RNG. If you get a tight roll where total mineral deposits is, say, 18 minerals, that's only 3 alloy workers max, no scientists.


Now compare the same system RNG output for a catalytic empire.

For the Catalytic Empire, 10 systems means 4 starbases for a guaranteed 40 food for 4 catalytic technicians (12 alloys), 80 if they go unyielding for 8/24 alloys. (Though realistically even that's 88 for 2-food-shy-of-10 technicians and 30 alloys with the first farming tech.) And- more importantly- they can use all 60 minerals directly for science.

For hive-minds, scientists are directly upkept at 6 minerals a science-drone, for 10 scientists (40 science). For non-hive-minds, scientists are at about 12 minerals-for-2-CGs (not including living standards), or 5 scientists (20 science).



For a early game economy, which is going to get to do better in a Year 20/30/40 wars- the side whose space deposit economy for the first 10 systems supports 12 alloys/12 science, or the one whose space deposits can support 12-24 alloys (Unyielding or not) and 20-40 science (Gestalt or not).


Space-based mineral income can scale faster per 10 systems than food income after the first 10 systems (only 1 hydroponics bay per base), but what those minerals can support does not. You can support a higher number of specialists with catalytic space economy than not, and in the early game not-gimping your science is far more optimal.



They are also a pop free source of alloy input and provide far more than food bays on starbases ever can.

Only come the mid-game, at the cost of using minerals for something other than science, at which point we're back in the issue of 'well, in the long run the mineral-vs-food conversion into alloys-'

No- that's missing the forest for a tree. Cataltyic converter is for early-game mineral-free alloy economy so that you can use all your space-minerals for building science labs and districts without having to delay or give up the alloy economy.

 

Nevars

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RankTradition
AExpansion
BProsperity (+), Mercentile (+), Diplomacy, Synchronicity (+)
CDiscovery, Harmony, Supremacy
DDomination, Unyielding (+++), Versatility, Adaptibility (++)
ESubterfuge

Tradition that has plus sign means that in some circumstance their rank will jump up such as playing gestalt empire will make unyielding jump up to A rank.
 

Ryika

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RNG dependent and unreliable, as well as neglecting that minerals are needed to cover alloys and science.

At your first 9 systems of expansion, which is realistic in your first two decades or so, you get +1 starbase. That's 4 starbases and 10 systems worth of mineral income, or 8 starbases and 10 systems worth of mineral income if you take Unyielding.
Not a comment on the validity of the rest of your post, but this is based on a false assumption.

Even without the perk, there's no need to stop at 4 starbases, since going over cap is economically viable early on. It just increases upkeep cost of starbases, which is hardly anything if you're spamming Solar Panels which don't have any upkeep, and Hydro Bays, which only have an upkeep of 1, and then there's another 2 upkeep from the starbase itself.
 
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A2ch0n

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I find it quite interesting, how different the view of the playerbase on the value of the different traditions is. Sure, there is a mathematically perfect option but for most of us, it's still personal preference. And what is most important, the value of each tradition changes with our preferences! Players with a story focus or at least with a taste for narrative prefer for example discovery as first pick and give it a higher rank. Those with a preference for a strong empire or a conquering focus prefer expansion and supremacy. And parcifist players like diplomacy.

I think each tradition has it's place and if we don't break it down on raw numbers all of them are now in a acceptable state. Sure some tweaks now and there are always good or neccesary. But i wouldn't compare for example unyielding with diplomacy. Both serve completely different purposes and i think this can be expanded to every tradition tree. I think it's actually more about optimizing the base mechanics for what the traditions are build for instead the traditions themself. My favorite examples here are unyealding and subterfuge. Both trees are really good but the base mechanic (starbases and espionage) are not powerfull enough in most cases. But this won't stop most of us from take them if we want to play a certain style.

At least, the rework of the traditions is a huge success i think! And the ability to avoid those we don't like or that don't fit in our playstile (be it rp or optimization) is another good point.
 
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DeanTheDull

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Not a comment on the validity of the rest of your post, but this is based on a false assumption.

Even without the perk, there's no need to stop at 4 starbases, since going over cap is economically viable early on. It just increases upkeep cost of starbases, which is hardly anything if you're spamming Solar Panels which don't have any upkeep, and Hydro Bays, which only have an upkeep of 1, and then there's another 2 upkeep from the starbase itself.

Totally true, but this actually drastically increases the catalytic-converter power potential quite a bit higher since your food-economy then only becomes limited by your ability to upkeep economy. This is effectively scaling your food economy by 10 per system regardless of space deposits means that you can afford 1 catalytic technician per system you have, with the the alloys from the technician covering the cost of even non-unyielding starbase in 7 years (under 10 if you also get solar panels).


For gestalts, starbase spam on your normal expansion is truly optimal in the early game with catalytic converter, and gets ridonculous with Unyielding. With each fully-kitted starbase being 250 alloys (100 unyielding upgrade cost, 250 for the solar panels/hydroponics), the whole kit pays for its own alloys on the catalytic technician alone in 10 years while the 12 energy is for whatever. This gets even better if you get the T2 starbases early, because you can then roll 2 more solar panel farms and get that second build slot for enclaves/mineral processing buildings, only the later of which increase the energy upkeep.


Because the starbase upkeep penalty is 25% for each starbase over the cap, but since- as you say- only 3 energy upkeep per T1 starbase, you can be 12 starbases over your cap before your starbase energy breaks even (12*25% = +300%; 100% base upkeep + 300% increased upkeep = 400% upkeep; 3 energy * 400% = 12) before your Tier 1 starbases start breaking even on energy upkeep. That's not going to occur before you have 16 systems total (3 starbases + 1 starbase per 10 systems + 12 over limit).

16 starbases with hydroponics bays = 16 catalytic technicians covered on their job and personal food upkeep (9 technician, 1 pop upkeep). 8 industrial districts on your homeworld (which has 100% habitability + increased stability) will give 48 alloys a month.

48 alloys a month at a cost of just 16 workers to hold the jobs and the minerals to build the 8 industiral districts- none of which decrease your ability to support more scientists- is extremely, extremely strong.

This in turn would only get stronger every starbase tier you upgrade, since every tier increases base energy upkeep by 1 (4 with your increased modifiers), but increases energy output by 12 for the new 2 solar panels. Meaning your new energy can go into more starbases (albeit at less expansive limits), or mineral/enclave starbase buildings, etc.





However, because it gamey to the point of exploit- and not as generalizable to the normal organics most people are familiar with due to the lack of solar panels to offset the increasing energy upkeep- I didn't want to get into the weeds with it. Not when people are already senstiive to the zero-food economy catalytic converter exploit that's getting banned in co-op.

(Good call out, though!)
 
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Coconut_Cookie

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Oh okay.
I don't believe you can switch them. That would just encourage more micromanagement, minmaxing, and cheese.
How? You barely interact with traditions as it is. Shouldn't you be able to shift the long term strategy of your empire (at a significant cost of course). Just like with the national ideas in EU. I think the worst offenders for pointless micro management are things like always needing to keep an eye on jobs and housing because those are non decisions once their cost is trivial.
 

Blackadder23

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Oh okay.

How? You barely interact with traditions as it is. Shouldn't you be able to shift the long term strategy of your empire (at a significant cost of course). Just like with the national ideas in EU. I think the worst offenders for pointless micro management are things like always needing to keep an eye on jobs and housing because those are non decisions once their cost is trivial.
Well, if not micromangement by your definition, then definitely minmaxing and cheese. People would take Expansion and Discovery for the early bonuses and ditch them later. If you make a choice, accept the consequences of that choice. People who want to eat their cake and have it too annoy me.
 
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BakedPotato

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Harmony isn't completely terrible. +1 leader cap, 75% reduction in demotion time, +1 edict capacity, +5 stability, -10% pop sprawl.

The rest is mostly pointless.
Shoutout to Harmony if you're a Doomsday origin addict like me. Kinship's 75% reduction time to pop demotion is HUGE. Other than that, it's hard to notice that tradition perk and I've always felt it should have a secondary effect. Adaptability's resettlement perk suffers the same, it should have a secondary effect for those who do not resettle.
 
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