Ranking the tradition trees

[Stardance]

I usually go discovery / expansion / diplomacy / mercantile / supremacy / unyielding.

Not necessarily filling the tree, just getting what I need and filling later.

I think the tradition trees really depend on play style, and we see a lot of variety as a result. They don’t fit nicely in tiers.

Currently AI empires have trouble being a threat to the player, but if they were, I might try subterfuge. I mean, why bother if you are going to roll over them later with your fleets?

Subterfuge on a stronger neighbor could be an interesting strategy - get them fighting someone else so they leave you alone, and steal tech to catch up - the AI just isn’t there yet. Maybe by next year.

 

[ChiefBigFeather]

Stefan made a good video on the topic. I'd rather listen to him then the average forum crowd.

 

[fusei]

This is for my usual setup as MegaCorp with 2x tech/unity cost:

1. Diplomacy –> Federations (for trade league)
later on: unity for embassies once the number of contacts makes it worth it; federation fleet bonus once it's enabled

2. Mercantile –> +1 trade for clerks –> bonus merchants
later on: federation fleet bonus once it's enabled

3. Discovery (everything for research bonus)

4. Harmony –> + 20 years leader age (timing depends on if and when I need to save a leader I rather keep till I can put them in a synth tin)
in addition I like +5 stability; + 1 edict cap; -10% sprawl from pop

At this point I fill up started traditions for perks

5. Supremacy (rapid deployment and supremacy stance)

6. Prosperity (bonus production; stability)

7. Adaptability (+1 building slot for habitats (and all other planets))


Expansion: either you take it early or not at all
Subterfuge: it does what it does really good, unfortunately what it does is useless; took it once for an achievement
Domination: nothing in it really says get me, so I don't
Unyielding: +4 starbase cap is not worth a slot for me

 

[Blackadder23]

- Harmony (is there anyone out there who actually likes it?)

I take Harmony in every game, usually as my second pick, for the +20 leader lifespan. If I'm playing Inward Perfection or Shared Burdens, Harmony is my first pick (for RP reasons, of course). If you play the AI, as I do, I think it's risible to claim that you need to worry much about which traditions you take.

 

[Fenris_SE]

Couldn't say what the "Best" one is, only that I always take Discovery first. I often want to take others first, I even plan on taking others first, then it comes time to choose and I'm like "a quick +20% to research ...... ok, it's Discovery first". I think it's leftover PTSD from my early days of playing when I'd have to try defending with a pathetic fleet of ships against the enemies larger and much more advanced fleet. Ever since I've been afraid of falling behind in tech. Which probably explains taking "Intelligent" as a trait quite often as well.

After that it really depends on how the game is going. But usually Expansion will be next, just for that extra +10% pop growth. Then it's a toss up between traditions that add to economy or ones that add edicts, I love my edicts and usually have 5 or 6 running at mid game.

I always take Supremacy as well. Just depends on what is going on in the game as to when I take it.

Unyielding is actually really good, I just don't always take it. If I end up in an area with only one or two choke points, its great for hiding behind bastions that the AI wont have a chance against til mid game and just trying to tech rush. But if my neighbors are nice or I can keep my military strength at a comfortable level I usually skip it.

Subterfuge is probably good for what it does. Thing is I'd much rather build on my science, economy, pop modifiers, and military strength first. I feel like those things help me get ahead of the AI faster, so as a result, by the time I can take Subterfuge I don't need it.

 

[andriy.gerasika]

Discovery 1st, for Map the Stars edict/survey rush -- anomalies do not spawn if the system was already surveyed by Xenos...
Expansion/Supremacy 2nd, depending on Peaceful/Warlike empire I play

 

[Mastikator]

You can't put Mercantile in A and then Diplomacy in E

If you go Mercantile you need to go 2 points into Diplomacy and create your perfect federation, they are a combo

They are required building a trade build and not going trade federation is a waste

It gives you trade league and extra trade % from leveling up the federation

That's probably true for multiplayer but I don't have the time for that. Federating with the AI is too stifling and often traps the player so I'd say anything that involves making a federation with an AI is a trap

 

[klopkr]

Is there any reason not to take discovery or expansion first?

Other than a tech boost what's the point of discovery in the late game?

I wish there were a few more options that act as counters to other good tradition trees. The way prosperity and mercantile work.

 

[Tamwin5]

Is there any reason not to take discovery or expansion first?

Other than a tech boost what's the point of discovery in the late game?

I wish there were a few more options that act as counters to other good tradition trees. The way prosperity and mercantile work.

There are reasons, but generally it's for specific builds. If you are going for max trade merchant spam, then you'd start with mercantile, since it gives the +1 merchant from commercial zones. Clone army builds generally start prosperity, since the reduced building/disctrict cost and 25% planetary build speed are very strong for trying to have enough jobs for all your pops right at the start. Finally, super fast rush builds start supremacy, since they only have time to grab a single tree before they declare war.

Well, Discovery also gives +1 scientist level cap and +1 leader level cap which can be useful. But the tech boost (+1 research option, -20% researcher upkeep, and +10% research speed) is the main reason.

Are prosperity and mercantile even counters? I feel like you should be going prosperity always, 13% specialist output (and 8% other output) is too good to pass up.

 

[sillyrobot]

Is there any reason not to take discovery or expansion first?

Other than a tech boost what's the point of discovery in the late game?

I wish there were a few more options that act as counters to other good tradition trees. The way prosperity and mercantile work.

Leader cap increase, research job upkeep reduction. I take Discovery close to last rather than first. That's when the job upkeep reduction matters.

Early game, the only other valuable addition is the the extra research alternative. The anomaly and survey reductions can be somewhat useful in early game, but I'd rather simply build a couple of extra science ships instead. Map the Stars is a trap choice in my opinion and the boost to research stations is a joke.

 

[klopkr]

Are prosperity and mercantile even counters? I feel like you should be going prosperity always, 13% specialist output (and 8% other output) is too good to pass up.

Mm they're not counter but they're like twins you'll usually either pick one or the other or both together.

Leader cap increase, research job upkeep reduction. I take Discovery close to last rather than first. That's when the job upkeep reduction matters.

Early game, the only other valuable addition is the the extra research alternative. The anomaly and survey reductions can be somewhat useful in early game, but I'd rather simply build a couple of extra science ships instead. Map the Stars is a trap choice in my opinion and the boost to research stations is a joke.

You bring up good points. I always have it by the end game so I never thought about the leader upkeep much.

You also now have me thinking. How many extra ships would it take to make up for the extra anomalies? I love anomalies and they feel like such a nice little sprinkle of bonuses. I always go for 5-6 science ships at the start of the game. Is it just inherently better to always have more? I hate hitting that point where I have to kill like half of them because they're useless.

 

[SaintD]

It always depends on what your build is going to be. Mercantile is 'all or nothing' for me. Either I'm doing a Merchant spam trade build.....or I'm not. It's either first pick, S-tier overpowered ridiculousness....or I'm not doing a trade build and it's trash I don't touch.

 

[sillyrobot]

Mm they're not counter but they're like twins you'll usually either pick one or the other or both together.


You bring up good points. I always have it by the end game so I never thought about the leader upkeep much.

You also now have me thinking. How many extra ships would it take to make up for the extra anomalies? I love anomalies and they feel like such a nice little sprinkle of bonuses. I always go for 5-6 science ships at the start of the game. Is it just inherently better to always have more? I hate hitting that point where I have to kill like half of them because they're useless.

The survey speed boost is +33% so at most 1 extra per 3 if you don't run Map the Stars. If you do run MtS then the total boost rises to +58% and 1 per 2 is a better fit. Less actually as there is an extra early tech that grants +25% across the board.

If you don't run MtS, you're looking at 125% vs. 153% which is less than a +25% improvement or +1 ship per 4 normal count.

If you do run MtS, you're looking at 125% vs. 183% which is less than 150% boost and one extra per 2 science ships puts you ahead. So if you are running 6 normally, spend 300 alloy and 600 energy and get 3 more rather than spending the influence to fill your edict slot and take a tradition that doesn't boost early growth.

And that doesn't take other survey boosts like Curator labs or leader traits into consideration. Any other boost will continue to reduce the necessary ratio.

Mid-game, I toss a few on aiding research and leave a few sprinkled over the map to act as remote sensor stations. I'll typically have 20 or so by that point.

 

[klopkr]

The survey speed boost is +33% so at most 1 extra per 3 if you don't run Map the Stars. If you do run MtS then the total boost rises to +58% and 1 per 2 is a better fit. Less actually as there is an extra early tech that grants +25% across the board.

If you don't run MtS, you're looking at 125% vs. 153% which is less than a +25% improvement or +1 ship per 4 normal count.

If you do run MtS, you're looking at 125% vs. 183% which is less than 150% boost and one extra per 2 science ships puts you ahead. So if you are running 6 normally, spend 300 alloy and 600 energy and get 3 more rather than spending the influence to fill your edict slot and take a tradition that doesn't boost early growth.

And that doesn't take other survey boosts like Curator labs or leader traits into consideration. Any other boost will continue to reduce the necessary ratio.

Mid-game, I toss a few on aiding research and leave a few sprinkled over the map to act as remote sensor stations. I'll typically have 20 or so by that point.

This really shakes things up for me. Thanks for the info!

 

[Harkinian's Dinner]

Subterfuge is terrible because espionage is terrible and the tradition only makes you better at a useless thing.

People who think espionage is bad probably have no idea what it can do.

Espionage is basically a super cheap 10% research speed bonus at the very least via the backdoor event from Steal Technology with an asset.

And Extort Favors is ridiculously powerful in combination with the Crisis declaration resolution in the Galactic Community. If an empire is getting too strong, you can just steal a bunch of favors and force through a crisis vote in the GC that makes the entire galaxy declare total war on them.

 

[sillyrobot]

People who think espionage is bad probably have no idea what it can do.

Espionage is basically a super cheap 10% research speed bonus at the very least via the backdoor event from Steal Technology with an asset.

And Extort Favors is ridiculously powerful in combination with the Crisis declaration resolution in the Galactic Community. If an empire is getting too strong, you can just steal a bunch of favors and force through a crisis vote in the GC that makes the entire galaxy declare total war on them.

Favors are mostly pointless. I control the GC through simple numbers -- I'm larger than the rest of the galaxy combined by the time it matters.

The 10% bonus can be nice, but by mid-game I'm pulling a +100% bonus anyway. The extra isn't worth my time investment especially as it requires multiple operations with multiple touches and is time restricted.

 

[Aepdneds]

Wait, you get a 10% research speed bonus from espionage? I thought I only get a small amount of tech points. How long does this last and is it stackable if you are getting it from several empires?

 

[Mastikator]

The easiest way to get favors from an AI is to get non-bad relations with envoys and then just buy 10 favors for 5 food / month for 30 years (or some ridiculously low number).
The only benefit of using favors is that you can protectorize (and later integrate) an AI without using war. It's faster and cheaper than conquest. But the goal is the same and the best way to acquire more research is to acquire their planets and pops.

Subterfuge and diplomacy only makes sense as strategic means IF (and ONLY IF) you are dealing with an empire that is not a pushover, if you actually really need to know their starbase locations and fleet locations and you can't afford to go to war blind. Stellaris without mods does not offer that experience unless you're playing your first ever game with no introduction/beforehand knowledge.

 

[Franton]

Harmony isn't completely terrible. +1 leader cap, 75% reduction in demotion time, +1 edict capacity, +5 stability, -10% pop sprawl.

The rest is mostly pointless.

I guess you have a point there. Is +1 edict new in this tree? That tradition and the +stability boost would justify taking that tree. The rest is rather uninteresting IMHO.

protectorize (and later integrate)

I used to do that in 2.*, but now I've found that the most efficient way to grow your economy is stealing pops from other AIs with Nihilistic Acquisition, and for that you must not liberate, protect or integrate any other empire!

 

[Mastikator]

I used to do that in 2.*, but now I've found that the most efficient way to grow your economy is stealing pops from other AIs with Nihilistic Acquisition, and for that you must not liberate, protect or integrate any other empire!

Did they speed up raiding?