Rank your favorite Economy system for EU5

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Herr B.

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As people start to sort out EU5, I think it's time for a little opinion poll. Not a real one, of course, this isn't supported by this forum. I would just ask you to rank your favourite economy systems from PDX games, to give the Devs an idea what direction would be good for EU5.

I go first:

MEIOU & Taxes mod 3.0 [I have only seen DDs, not played yet]
Vic 2
MEIOU & Taxes mod 2.x
I:R
Stellaris
HOI4
EU4
CK3 [I have not played this very much]

In general, I prefer systems that feel "alive", with real pop numbers and various products produced by these pops.
 
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Most of these other systems do not make sens for a game set in the early modern era. You would not exactly be building factories like in victoria 2, or how ever you would try to adapt stellaris. The economic system of EU4 is relatively strong, and one of the things I would change the least.
 
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Most of these other systems do not make sens for a game set in the early modern era. You would not exactly be building factories like in victoria 2, or how ever you would try to adapt stellaris. The economic system of EU4 is relatively strong, and one of the things I would change the least.
We need POPs. Everybody needs POPs. Where are the POPs? I need to convert, massacre, plunder, expel, tax, each POP separately. Not a province, but the individual POPs. Without POPs, the game loses connection to reality. A province with absolute values (it's all Protestant, or all Catholic; all French, or all Flemish) is too much of an abstraction. As I said previously, we need POPs! POPs are everything. The only problem is that they crash the game. And they reset their preferences each time you reload the game. Then I hate POPs. But if they fix those problems with POPs, I'd definitely want POPs. POPs.
 
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We need POPs. Everybody needs POPs. Where are the POPs? I need to convert, massacre, plunder, expel, tax, each POP separately. Not a province, but the individual POPs. Without POPs, the game loses connection to reality. A province with absolute values (it's all Protestant, or all Catholic; all French, or all Flemish) is too much of an abstraction. As I said previously, we need POPs! POPs are everything. The only problem is that they crash the game. And they reset their preferences each time you reload the game. Then I hate POPs. But if they fix those problems with POPs, I'd definitely want POPs. POPs.
I don't think the majority of EU5 players are that hunger for pops. In fact Pops can create some performance issues, which you can see if you play stellaris for long enough.
 
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I don't think the majority of EU5 players are that hunger for pops. In fact Pops can create some performance issues, which you can see if you play stellaris for long enough.
There are no EU5 players. Not even one. Thus, I agree there's not a general awe for POPs among EU5 players. But I, as a former EU4 player, crave for POPs. POPs.
 
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Vic 2 but for EU
 
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If I wanted to play Vic2, I'd play Vic2. If I wanted to play CK3, I'd play CK3.

While there is some level of inspiration that can be taken from other related games in the series, copying the economic systems of other games (and mods) is entirely unwarranted. EU4 already has a pretty complicated and non-trivial economic systems as is. Trade has a great degree of complexity and is very much not something that is easy to solve (how many people on the forums and reddit still give absolutely incorrect advice all of the time about it?)

Re POPs: I've seen a lot of people say that a pop system will solve all of the game's problems. I've yet to see anyone actually tackle this as a thesis. Vic2 has many, many problems, include many of the same ones that EU4 has. There's been very little reckoning about I:R's many, many, many, many, many issues that still exist post-1.4 or 2.0. Its (forum) fanbase is so incredibly insular that its incapable of it. M&T exists in the same bubble, only people that "love" it will talk about it. Heck, the OP put a system that literally doesn't exist in any testable ecosystem and hasn't been played with as their "#1" system.
People have turned POPs (and the concept of "playing tall") into some strange form of fetish. No one can really give good specifics as to why it would actually improve the game from a gameplay perspective, presumably operating under the assumption that it must improve the game (it represents x better, sure, but how does the player interact with it without turning it into a micro-intensive slog). I get the nasty feeling that a lot of people don't or haven't really played Vic2 long enough to understand its faults and are just taking the super-fan's advice without its context.
 
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I am fine with anything as long as it doesn't have preset, arbitrary Eurocentric directions of trade flow, and hardcoded trade zones/nodes.

This is why I liked old EU3 trade system more, even if it was primitive in comparison.

MEIOU & Taxes mod 3.0 [I have only seen DDs, not played yet]
Vic 2
MEIOU & Taxes mod 2.x
I:R
Stellaris
HOI4
EU4
CK3 [I have not played this very much]

What do you mean?

Please elaborate - how does MEIOU & Taxes trade system work, and in what ways it differs from vanilla EU4? I have simply no idea.
 
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The only changes I would want for economics in EU:

Dynamic or two way trade routes. Makes no sense that say, China sends their goods to Europe to sell but Europe sends nothing back? I mean, sure, if Europeans have all the trade power. But if the Chinese have all the trade power, who exactly are they selling their trade goods to downstream? Where is the income actually being produced, and if the demand is actually in China for things like iron and cloth, why wouldn't a strong China just start to influence trade back the opposite (and ahistorical) direction? Just seems odd.

Imperator level province detail, so that you can properly model the true nature of luxury, manufactured, and food goods. More things than cloth were made in rich cities along the English Channel, more things than grain came out of the Nile Delta, etc.. It would also (I think) better represent the growth from the late Middle Ages into the Industrial Revolution, as well as the changing goods produced locally from the Columbian Exchange (the introduction of potatoes and tomatoes, for example). It would also allow for a rich, diverse influx of new trade goods to be added to the map to better represent the unique economies and cultures of each region.
 
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I would love a simple pop system. Just convert the base tax, production, manpower into POPs. So you end up have some simularity as in Imperator : Rome
 
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I would love a simple pop system. Just convert the base tax, production, manpower into POPs. So you end up have some simularity as in Imperator : Rome

Yeah and everyone wants their game to be similar to Imperator : Rome right ? Population system did not make I:R any better
 
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the mass migration that I:R is, is not suitable. But the having slow groth of development/pops is. I would even suggest one Development is one pop.
Then each pop can have a culture and religion. Which would improve the gameplay imho
 
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Pops are just a mirage, if it makes the game feel more suthentic for you, that's your experience, bit since pops will never be accurate, and will always have to be balanced weirdly as history shows that pops don't actually correspond to ecpnomic, poIitical or military power and influence, thus pops is not necessarily a better or more authentic way to do the gamd set in the early modern era.
 
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Holy moly. Not even a single person that ranked their favorite economy systems like I ask you. Anyways...

Most of these other systems do not make sens for a game set in the early modern era. You would not exactly be building factories like in victoria 2, or how ever you would try to adapt stellaris. The economic system of EU4 is relatively strong, and one of the things I would change the least.
Every economy system can be adapted sucessfully for every era. The basic jobs of economy didn't change so much, only their ratios.

In the current EU4, you can already build (proto-)factories. They are called manufactories. Only that they produce a fixed amount, instead of having population work in them. And maybe this is a surprise for you, but there were economies (especially in northern Italy), that had an economy very reliant on manufactored goods. Other economies relied on basic goods, of course.

Adopting the stellaris system? Easy. Instead of species, you have cultures, obviously. Instead of planets, you have provinces. Most of the jobs would be farmer jobs (90% of them, roughly, with each farmer producing 1.1 or 1.2 food), and then you have noble jobs, merchant jobs, artisan jobs (creating consumer goods, but the need per pop would be very low), etc. Rare resources would be replaced by luxury items, such as Silk, Steel, Glass, Chinaware etc.

Re POPs: I've seen a lot of people say that a pop system will solve all of the game's problems. I've yet to see anyone actually tackle this as a thesis. Vic2 has many, many problems, include many of the same ones that EU4 has. There's been very little reckoning about I:R's many, many, many, many, many issues that still exist post-1.4 or 2.0. Its (forum) fanbase is so incredibly insular that its incapable of it. M&T exists in the same bubble, only people that "love" it will talk about it. Heck, the OP put a system that literally doesn't exist in any testable ecosystem and hasn't been played with as their "#1" system.
Yes. Pops can fix all the issues in EU4, because it already does. Just play M&T 2.0, and you can see for yourself. Vic2 has many issues, but none of them is related to Pops, quite the opposite. Vic2 is only an interesting game because of the pop system, otherwise it would be a footnote. (The Concert of Europe mod fixes most problems of Vic2). The problem of I:R is simply, that the Devs didn't implement a real pop system, but went down with a half-simulation.

And yes, I am generally able to predict how a system is played from reading Dev Diaries. M&T 3.0 promises to simulate not only real population like 2.0, but also their strata like in Vic2 as well as dynamic migration. This is combinted with the realisitc M&T loot system, its geography system and all of the other simulation. It is truely exciting.

Please elaborate - how does MEIOU & Taxes trade system work, and in what ways it differs from vanilla EU4? I have simply no idea.
In M&T, trade goods and therefore trade value is dynamically calculated based on the number of population in your province. Production is split between rural and urban production, with the former being produced by rural pops and the latter being produced by urban pops. Rural production can be increased with farming efficiency (like building local canal systems), while urban pops can specialize to produce exclusive goods like silk, steel or chinaware to increase their profit.

The trade flow system is not changed in M&T 2.0, but a more dynamic trade flow system is announced for 3.0.

I don't like POPs and I don't want POps, so... who wins?
Probably you. My opinion seems to be not very popular.
 
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My preference will be as follows:

1. The current EU4 system. M&T is obviously better.
2. Vic 2 style POP system (mostly because of lack of population data)
3. Nothing
4. Nothing
5. Nothing
6. Imperator/ Stellaris style POPs (but please don't!)
7. Literally ANYTHING ELSE
8. No seriously, literally ANYTHING
9. Did you not hear me?!
...
...
...
999999996. Please stop
999999997. Please!
999999998. Sigh, ok
999999999. CK3 style system

Explanation:

- Imperator, Steallris POPs have performance issues and lack granularity. In imperator you may have 70 POPs of the same culture and religion in a province. In Vic 2, it will just be 1 pop with the appropriate population number. More accurate, more granular and better performance. Some people will say that population numbers were not available for that time period which is obviously true. But PDX still put POPs in imperator even though the numbers are COMPLETELY wrong. Which is why I think its best to just stick to the current EU4 system. Development estimates the population and done. M&T is better since it actually simulates actual population growth or tries to.

- CK3's economy is literally cancer. In CK3, Tibet's economy is the same as that of France or North India. Which is nuts because Tibet had less than 1/20 to 1/50 of their population if not less. The reason for this is that without POPs, every province is the same in CK3.it doesn't matter if the barony is Paris or the middle of the Sahara with 5 people living there, it will give you pretty much the same income.
 
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What I want:

1) An economic/trade model with actual goods been produced, transported somewhere else, bought, sold and consumed. Ships moving goods overseas, from port A to port B. Trade caravans moving goods inland form province A to province B.

2) Goods, markets and trade routes having a big impact in the economy/diplomacy of a given country.

3) Trade agreements with other nations, to be able to buy what I need and sell my surplus. I want to have to worry about the access to other country market in order to buy and sell my stuff.

4) Exclusive access to my colonial goods.

5) Actual global/local markets.
 
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Honestly, Eu4 has the least worst economy, but it is still way too basic, isolated and stale to be called as such. No copper? No worries, those 80k cannons don't need them. And lumber? Totally unneeded for those 50 heavies. Ottomans blocking the spice trade? Just send 20 light ships for Venice in the Mediterranean, everyone else doesn't care, it never came via that way and with all those siphoning countries anyway, you probably saw 1% at best of what is sent from India, and you won't have merchants and nobles at your thoat to do something about that anyway. You're Italy? Too bad, only one end node at full capacity, can't transfer from Genoa to Venice or the other way, way harder than crossing from Jakarta to Zanzibar. Hey, I'm India and I conquered SEA! I am already overloaded with spices, but somehow they still have more value for me than, say, sugar that I cannot produce. Zheng He? Who is that? Some propaganda to try to justify that China should be able to gain something out of East Africa, don't pay attention, everyone knows China has a trade deficit toward everyone not Japan. 1/1/1 Kalahari desert? Perfect place to build that manufactory! Houses are overrated, everyone knows those 30 camels produces as much as that big walled city full of people out there. Oh hey, inflation! ...What, only for the state? The worker don't also pay more taxes? Why is everything more costly only for me?

The list could go on and on, and sadly I'd like for it to not sound salty at how useless trade is even in the best Paradox has to offer. But that's the reality and it won't change anytime soon

... Also why all that population talk? Unless we're speaking of slaves those are not trade and economy related, right?
 
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- CK3's economy is literally cancer. In CK3, Tibet's economy is the same as that of France or North India. Which is nuts because Tibet had less than 1/20 to 1/50 of their population if not less. The reason for this is that without POPs, every province is the same in CK3.it doesn't matter if the barony is Paris or the middle of the Sahara with 5 people living there, it will give you pretty much the same income.

That's because CK3 actually has no economy system. It is probably not even meant to have one, because the game isn't about economics as much as we all want it.

The only economy that exists is taxes, and it has no purpose other than to work for that RP narrative, slowly build up settlements around the game, and provide fuel for wars. The only trade you see happening is through events. Commodities and goods don't exist outside of events (and in CK2, relics). Pops don't exist as pops - peasants and burghers are interacted through events or as a rebellious political faction, clergy and nobility are actual characters and their opinions and deals can make or break your game.

It is all about RP and narrative - that's what CK3's core is about. Economy and trade are not the point of CK games (although I would love to see them).

Those lands are same across the map because for narrative reasons, because sometimes small warlords have a chance to end up conquering big time in this era. Seljuks rose to power from nothing. The giant empire of medieval Delhi formed from a single lucky battle victory in 1193. Granadine state held out in their powerful castles for a long time after end of Andalusian Taifas. None of that would be possible if CK3 had a realistic number of provinces.

Another example is - Tibetans did successfully manage to actually invade northern India in 750s (exact same time they invaded China). Of course were quickly defeated and driven out by Pala Empire and Tang Empire respectively. But they did manage to launch successful invasions despite having no cities and very little population.

It is also the reason why India is extremely heavily nerfed in both CK games, and why every small/medium level Indian ruler isn't raising a 100,000 strong army, generate more wealth than rest of the map combined and steamroll everything in sight.

Calling what is intentionally non-existant "literally cancer" is some serious overreaction.
 
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