Randomized map comments (or nitpicking if you want)

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I've rambled about this in other threads, and I guess I'm just going to have to do this again because I have a tiny hope that some feedback would be heard to Paradox as they polish up the random world generator. I'm going to focus on this map first.

attachment.php


The map shows two continents, a more populated one to the East and an another one to the West. Let's call them West America and East America respectively, and I'll call that smaller landmass Little America. Not very creative.

1. Deserts

The first jarring aspect is the equatorial desert. The latitudes around the equator sees the atmospheric convection rising up, and the wet air from the ocean will rise and create a lot of rain in this latitude which is why we get rainforests and jungles around the equator. Simply put, both East and West America's equatorial deserts don't make a lot of sense. The Northern desert in West America makes more sense because it's located around the right latitude: 30 degrees north and south of the equator sees the atmospheric convection falling to the ground, and as the air is then dry, which creates large deserts around this latitude. Sahara, Arabian deserts, Australia and Kalahari all fall into this latitude.

The deserts on both continents turn into plains near the coast. If this is design, and the developers thought coastal deserts won't make a lot of sense... I'm afraid they're mistaken since coastal deserts are perfectly natural. They are usually found on the western edges of continents near the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. Atacama, Baja California, Mauritania and Namibia all fall into this category. Given the latitude, if anything, it is Little America that is going to experience coastal deserts to the West. Also notice that it's the Western Australia that is more desert than the East.

Another major contributor to desert formation is rainshadow created by the mountain ranges. The Rockies, for example, blocks much of rain from passing through it, leaving the Pacific Northwest very rainy and the interior rather dry, but not too dry to make it into a desert. The Himalaya and the Tibetan Plateau is responsible for the deserts in Tian Shan, but this one is also very far inland which makes wet air from the ocean hard to reach. It's kind of sad that the mountain ranges on all three land masses are fractured and make little sense, but the one on the Little America is likely to block the trade wind from the East, making it more likely to be desert on the west.

Even if Paradox isn't going to add plate tectonics, I hope they do at least a little bit about the climate since this can be rather easily done given the location of the provinces, and there are like.. three options? Plains, jungles and deserts (barring mountains and hills, which is another concern). Jungles near the equators, deserts around 30-50 degrees latitude, particularly on the western coasts of the continents, and higher likelihood of desert if there is a mountain range blocking the trade winds, and the rest plains.

2. Mountains

The mountain ranges are pretty.... random. And given the size of the continents, they're too few and far between.

Large continents tend to have one major mountain range tucked to one side of the continent: Australia and Africa both have long ranges to the East, and the Americas have the Rockies and the Andes to the West. This is because of the plate movement, where one side of the continent is getting squeezed. (North America also has the Appalachians, but this is a relic of a much more ancient geological process that is now inactive.) It's okay to have few smaller mountains and hills pretty much anywhere the randomizer decides to place, but having one major range per continent at least wouldn't be a bad idea.

Take the West America. This is a really huge continent, and it stretches north to south. It just cries for a long, major mountain range from the Northern tundra area to the Southern end, with the appropriate coastal deserts in the right latitudes.

Or, if we have a large continent like this, it could also be the result of two continental plates crashing into each other. This could cause huge mountain range by itself, in the Tibetan scale. The Alps is another example of this; the African plate and the Eurasian plate are colliding, slowly closing in the Mediterranean.

And when there is a peninsula, there is mountain range that goes along with it. Think of Iberia, Italy, Koea, Indochina, etc. And a peninsula often (not always) extends into sea, creating an island or two, or more.

3. Islands

I kind of like the three islands between East and West America, and they align themselves in a direction. But when an island chain aligns itself in a direction like this, it usually implies one of the two things: it's the plate boundary, or a result of the hot spot.

The Carribean islands from Cuba to the Lesser Antilles are an example of the plate boundary phenomenon. These islands are located right on the edge of the Carribean, North American and South American plate. Likewise, Japan is a volcanic island chain on the plate border between the Eurasian, Pacific and North American plates.

A hot spot is just some dumb random place where the mantle is uber-active and melts a lot of crust into magma. (I'm oversimplifying this and many other things, but hell the mechanical details aren't that important) It stays where it is, but the plate above it can move, popping up islands in the direction of the plate movement. Hawaii is a prime example of this.

4. Round vs Jagged Coastlines

The coastlines look pretty round all over, with a few exceptions here and there. Coastlines that are roughly round are completely O.K. and natural, like in much of Africa and Australia. However, when there is a mountain range very close to the coastline, it should be rather jagged like in Norway or Britain. Fjords are essentially flooded river valleys, and it can happen anywhere when lots of small river valleys from the mountain range flow into the ocean right away. The end of the last glacial age flooded much of the low-lying plains, making Sumatra and much of Indonesia into islands, Baltic became a sea, and the East Sea/Sea of Japan got connected with the Pacific.

As I said, round coastlines do occur naturally and it's not as jarring as the equatorial deserts, but it'd be nice to have some variety in the landscape. IRL, South America is mostly nice and round, but North American coastline is pretty wacky especially in the North. If there are two mountain ranges branching out in two directions, it'd look quite natural and realistic to make one into a peninsula and have an inland bay in between.

5. Rivers

I can't see any river on the map so maybe this part is unnecessary, but I hope the rivers don't defy gravity. That is, they should never cross a mountain range, nor should they split in two directions unless very near the mouth where they form a delta. If I ever see a river does that, it's going to appear even more absurd than Gotland conquering Russia. At least to me. Seriously.



Now, I tried to explain things with the assumption that more people on the forum are into history and culture stuff than geology, and I apologize if I sounded like stating the obvious. If anyone wants to contribute and point out other things that I missed this time, please do so, as I hope the constructive feedbacks will give us a more realistic looking new worlds.
 

Number One

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The term Work In Progress was thrown around ALOT during the video so i think its to early to tell, if we see a finished product and theres no improvement however that would be a bit slack.

Edit: we also dont want whales swimming around on solid ground!
 

DanubianCossak

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The river Danube crosses a mountain range.

Ah look a mention of something dear to me!

Anyway i think Danube defies the common rules because of the place where it originates, which can feed it with enough water to pretty much cut through anything. In other words, make mountains massive enough and there are no rules to what rivers can do.
 

unmerged(804580)

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Part 2. I'm going to comment on the second screenshot from the second Dev Diary. Hopefully, as the work gets more polished and newer screenshots are revealed, the more sense the landscape will make. For this time, I had to label some of the places rather arbitrarily just to be able to point things out.

the_world_is_random_1.jpg


First of all, I think this one is way better than the last one, and I think I did most of the boring explanations already so this'll be kind of shorter.

Let's start with the large landmass I arbitrarily named New Sweden and Greenland. These two lands are obviously the ones that extend into the Arctic, and I can't help but notice the mountains encircling the southwestern corner of New Sweden. These mountains will cause the interior to be drier, and the area shown as tundra would actually be more affected by ocean currents to NOT be tundra. I feel like this part would have to be flipped, to make the interior tundra and the tip plain... because, tundra is basically the desert you get near the polar areas. The low temperature freezes the water cycle, which is often sufficient enough to dramatically reduce precipitation. One suggestion I want to make about the polar regions, icecaps and tundras: make a constant so the randomized world would have more or less the same ratio of tundra and icecap as in the real world. Because, without the substantial amount of glacier stored in Greenland, the sea level would have to be globally higher.

Island of New Jan Mayen extends into South and it's all plain. This is weird. It has to be remembered that an island is essentially a huge mountain rising from the ocean floor, and it's going to be pretty strange if an island rising from the ocean floor has a flat plain surface. This part of the southern extension just begs to be mountainous. The same could be said for the islands like New Merrakesh, Greater Britain and Shawnee. I'm not saying that an island can't have a plain, but a mountain should be more predominant in islands of this size: even that Greater Britain is like three times the size of Sicily, it has to have a mountain range to justify its existence.

The central American desert doesn't make sense for the same reason I mentioned on the first post: this desert is equatorial. Although it's largely surrounded by mountains, and the rainshadow could make this more like a savanna or steppe instead of a jungle, I cannot conceive that this part would be desert given the latitude. I think an argument could be made for this America that it's going to be largely devoid of any desert, maybe a little on New Timbuktu. It's about the ocean current, and let me elaborate. This gets tricky.

Western Australia, Namibia, Baja California and Morocco are all affected by the cold ocean currents, and this is one of the reasons why the western coasts tend to be deserts. But Alaska isn't a desert and nor is Norway because those areas are affected by warm ocean currets. Ocean currents go clockwise in the Northern hemisphere, and it's likely that New Timbuktu is affected by the cold current coming from the North Pacific. But now, since we have completely different land masses in the Americas, the whole ocean currents pattern would change globally, which would render completely different climate pattern in many parts of the Old World as well. Hmm... as much as I'd like to see plausible climate patterns, I don't think it'd be a good idea to go too deep since that'd have to overhaul the Old World along with it.

So, let's ignore the ocean currents. Western coast around 30 degrees turning into deserts sounds like an aceptable rule of thumb for the RWG.

Regarding the mountain patterns... it looks mostly O.K., though I think it needs to be a bit more exaggerated. New Gelre and America have distinct major mountain ranges, which is certainly much better than the previous map. New Timbuktu and New Dawwaro regions have two parallel mountain ranges, and the areas in between are great places to add major lakes similar to Baikal or Victoria, as they are kind of suggestive of rift valleys, basically a schism where the plate movements are tearing a continent apart.

Also, the areas that I marked as New Istanbul and New Bengal are strangely devoid of mountains, especially New Bengal as it is a peninsula. There could be a major mountain range stretching from New Timbuktu to New Istanbul, and the mountain chain in the south of the American Desert should extend to New Bengal.

The last thing, the settlement pattern. Aside from the other thing that I think the Central American Desert should rather be rainforest/jungle or at least plain, why would these natives all cluster around in the desert when there are better places to live? Maybe the RWG decided to put them in the interior to make rooms for colonizers? Well, while that'd be pretty sensible (gameplay-wise), it's also silly to have these highly organized societies either in the middle of jungle or deserts when there are coastal plains around.


Caveat: Guessing what the climate of a hypothetical randomly-generated continent should be is, literally, a guess and I am sure different arguments can be made. Feel free to smack back if I'm mistaken or overlooking something, and I hope this thread could spark some discussion about the geography of the randomized new worlds in general - how the RWG seems to work, what consistant mistakes the RWG apparently makes, and how it could be improved.
 
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Hans Lemurson

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It think that part of the problem is that the real World Map that they made is so lovingly detailed that it magnifies the flaws of its synthetic brother.

The varied ridges of the Atlas Mountains, the smooth transition from barren to lush below the Sahara, and the intricate nooks and crannies of the Northern European coastline. None of these are to be found in the new world. Yet.

I agree with all of your criticisms, and am eagerly awaiting Paradox's steady improvement of their map generation script.
 

mcmanusaur

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1. Deserts

Even if Paradox isn't going to add plate tectonics, I hope they do at least a little bit about the climate since this can be rather easily done given the location of the provinces, and there are like.. three options? Plains, jungles and deserts (barring mountains and hills, which is another concern). Jungles near the equators, deserts around 30-50 degrees latitude, particularly on the western coasts of the continents, and higher likelihood of desert if there is a mountain range blocking the trade winds, and the rest plains.

For me plate tectonics is completely unnecessary to create realistic-looking continents, so I'm not sure why there are people complaining about that. I've seen fractal-based generation that does the trick just fine, but at any rate realistic climate variance across latitudes (as you describe) is very necessary in my opinion, and not all that complicated all things considered. Rain shadows would be ideal in addition, but I think that it would be passable without them.

2. Mountains

The mountain ranges are pretty.... random. And given the size of the continents, they're too few and far between.

And when there is a peninsula, there is mountain range that goes along with it. Think of Iberia, Italy, Koea, Indochina, etc. And a peninsula often (not always) extends into sea, creating an island or two, or more.

For me one of the biggest issues with this current product (which you mention briefly) is that elevation and coastlines seem to be completely unrelated from one another, as if you generate a shape and then randomly plop down some mountains, instead of making multiple randomized passes to determine elevation and assigning sea level to some threshold.

3. Islands

The islands look alright to me so far; I'd just like to see more of them if anything.

4. Round vs Jagged Coastlines

The coastlines are a bit too smoothed at the moment... I'm not sure if that's a product of not using a noisy enough function or applying too much smoothing post hoc, but using fractal-based generation (as I mentioned above) should help in this regard.

5. Rivers

Ideally if they do actually bother with procedurally-determined elevation (rather than plopping down mountain ranges after the fact), then it's just a question of rivers traveling in whichever direction allows them to travel downward at the quickest rate (which is very simple to explain, but actually quite complicated to program, or so I've heard).
 

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I really like the first post, you make a lot of good observations and very well explained, however a lot of this stuff may be incredibly hard to program. Even the Civilization games I think don't really have that much geological basis and they've been doing it for decades.

My biggest concerns, apart from climate zones is the very smooth coastlines, compared to the Old World they look really off and this should be easy to get right with some jagging function, and the geometrical province shapes are also very boring but that may be difficult to get right as well. I just hope they make desert and jungle provinces large and sparse and coastal, and green ones small and heavily populated.

As long as we don't get a Westeros kind of thing I'm happy.
 

unmerged(804580)

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@ mcmanusaur:

1. Yes, fractal-based random geography can look just fine, and I'm not going to argue that tectonics is absolutely necessary. The dev response was that they're not going to simulate tectonics in the random world generation, which is fine with me, as long as some of the basic features that are likely to be found in continents of certain size are present: at least one overarching backbone mountain range and the climatic simulation based on the latitude/altitude. A well-done fractal-based randomizer can look certainly better than half-ass tectonic simulation with its realistic complexity.

2. I'm pretty sure that the RWG tries to create mountain ranges as if they're lines. Both maps feature mountains that align in a thin line while in the real life they're more likely to be bumpy blobs that roughly form a think blurry line with the elevation gradually declining as you go from mountainous to plain areas. The terrain elevation, as you say, really needs more work IMO; the current maps show a line of mountains in the midst of flat land. I can't even guess in what order the RWG generates stuff, but I think the elevation should be the highest priority (maybe after coastline to make sure the continents have a certain size at least?), since the latitude and the altitude are two key defining factors on climate.

(Ocean current is also a huge one, but this will have to be foregone since messing with it will mess with the entire Old World as well... e.g. the very fact that Panama links the two continents and blocks the Pacific equatorial currents from entering the Atlantic is a huge climate variable by itself, and opening it up as the RWG is very likely to do will change a lot of the Old World as well. I'm okay if the ocean current influences get compromised for the sake of preserving the Old World as it is.)

3. They look good if you forget about the fact they're zoomed out to the max. What looks like small islands (like what I marked as Greater Britain on the second map) is actually a very large one almost three times the size of Sicily if you compare the two. I agree there should be more, and there should be a lot more smaller ones, preferrably forming a chain of some sort in a way that could be rationalized (even if tectonics isn't considered). Fortunately, it's not difficult to rationalize an island chain that divides the two large continental masses or continues from a peninsula, and a random chain of a few islands in the middle of nowhere can be explained as results of hot spots. But I wouldn't want to see a Carribean or Japan-like string of islands linking two continents, for example; such things will look weird and hard to justify.

Again, I have no idea how the RWG decides to create islands, but I feel like it should really be a part of the general elevation creation process, so the mountain ranges forming peninsulas may extend into islands, random bumps could be flooded into inland islands, etc. Creating a coastline for islands and then justifying their existence would be way harder to program, IMO.

4. I'm OK with the smooth lines, as long as not everything is smooth. Especially in the higher latitudes which would have conceivably experienced glaciation (basically anything north of Britain, inclusive), the coastline could use some more fractals. If that happens in the tropics, though, it may look a bit awkward.

5. Rivers don't necessarily have to flow at the quickest distance, it just has to follow from higher to lower altitude.. but, really, the altitude should be considered before generating rivers otherwise the RWG might dump a mountain in inappropriate locations.


Now the initial excitement after the announcement is a bit cooling off, I'm starting to feel like once the expansion is released, people will start complaining how bad the lands look like. It's going to be partially due to the fact that the Old World geography is done in such a beautiful way (as Hans Lemurson pointed out) and the randomized New World is bound to pale in comparison, but... also, most people who play the game would have been looking at the "real thing" for hundreds if not thousands of hours already and have a feel of what the real thing should look like. If something shows up that defies the Earth's geological patterns, it's going to stand out as just bizarre even though they may not be able to explain why it looks bizarre.
 

unmerged(804580)

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I really like the first post, you make a lot of good observations and very well explained, however a lot of this stuff may be incredibly hard to program. Even the Civilization games I think don't really have that much geological basis and they've been doing it for decades.

My biggest concerns, apart from climate zones is the very smooth coastlines, compared to the Old World they look really off and this should be easy to get right with some jagging function, and the geometrical province shapes are also very boring but that may be difficult to get right as well. I just hope they make desert and jungle provinces large and sparse and coastal, and green ones small and heavily populated.

As long as we don't get a Westeros kind of thing I'm happy.

Civ games, as far as I remember, have a nice trick under their sleeves. You cannot zoom out and see the whole world at once. You always see a part of the world, and there's a lot of cluster to distract you from actually assessing the geological plausibility. And the Civ terrain is made of tiles. Well, they've done it for decades and I'm sure they have pretty sophisticated algorithms there, but even if the world actually sucks it's not going to stand out as much.

But in EU4, we can zoom out and examine the whole thing, and the terrain map mode isn't going to make it easier on Pdox. And we're going to compare it with the Old World right next to it. While I applaud Paradox decision to try this, and I will be ecstatic if the finalized product gets it right, I don't think I'm going to be too disappointed if not everything makes perfect sense. Personally, I'm ready to cut them some slack, as long as the final result makes "rough" sense if not uber-polished: basic climate zone distinctions and elevations that make sense would be the biggest for me.
 
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mcmanusaur

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2. I'm pretty sure that the RWG tries to create mountain ranges as if they're lines. Both maps feature mountains that align in a thin line while in the real life they're more likely to be bumpy blobs that roughly form a think blurry line with the elevation gradually declining as you go from mountainous to plain areas. The terrain elevation, as you say, really needs more work IMO; the current maps show a line of mountains in the midst of flat land. I can't even guess in what order the RWG generates stuff, but I think the elevation should be the highest priority (maybe after coastline to make sure the continents have a certain size at least?), since the latitude and the altitude are two key defining factors on climate.
Well, I'd put elevation before everything, so that you make several passes using your fractal algorithm or whatever to get the relative elevation of everything, and then you choose some sea level threshold (perhaps based on how much total land area you want) so that everything below it is underwater and everything above it is land (with the relative variation forming mountains and plains).

Again, I have no idea how the RWG decides to create islands, but I feel like it should really be a part of the general elevation creation process, so the mountain ranges forming peninsulas may extend into islands, random bumps could be flooded into inland islands, etc. Creating a coastline for islands and then justifying their existence would be way harder to program, IMO.
Right, the way I suggested islands would be part of the general elevation step. Imagine it like this: you start with a stark white piece of paper and then you add a little bit of darkness according to some random fractal pattern. Repeat that pattern many, many times and you actually get a sort of greyscale heightmap with several local maxima and minima. Then designate some arbitrary shade to serve as sea level threshold; everything lighter than it becomes water and everything darker becomes land of an elevation proportional to its darkness, thus creating a coastline. Local maxima whose surroundings do not fall below the threshold will become mountain chains, and local maxima whose surroundings do fall below that threshold will become island chains.

4. I'm OK with the smooth lines, as long as not everything is smooth. Especially in the higher latitudes which would have conceivably experienced glaciation (basically anything north of Britain, inclusive), the coastline could use some more fractals. If that happens in the tropics, though, it may look a bit awkward.
This is actually a good point I hadn't considered; there should be less smoothness at high latitudes, leading to more jagged coastlines.

5. Rivers don't necessarily have to flow at the quickest distance, it just has to follow from higher to lower altitude.. but, really, the altitude should be considered before generating rivers otherwise the RWG might dump a mountain in inappropriate locations.
What I meant by that is that rivers will flow in the direction that allows them to fall the quickest. So like on a slope there will be 180 degrees that technically allows the river to go from higher altitude to lower altitude but the direction perpendicular to the isolines will achieve that the most efficiently. I think processing this step of the world generation might take some calculus, so its bound to be one of the slowest.
 

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I really like the first post, you make a lot of good observations and very well explained, however a lot of this stuff may be incredibly hard to program. Even the Civilization games I think don't really have that much geological basis and they've been doing it for decades.

There are more tectonics type map generators, and some excellent ones by fans even. However these don't work too great with Civ games since you want balanced cities instead of say a city with all hills (speaking civ4 here). In EU though, you are not constrained by terrain type, and I as a fan demand good looking maps!
 

hauptman

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There are more tectonics type map generators, and some excellent ones by fans even. However these don't work too great with Civ games since you want balanced cities instead of say a city with all hills (speaking civ4 here). In EU though, you are not constrained by terrain type, and I as a fan demand good looking maps!

I used ONLY the techtonics map in civ 4 once I found it... Those hill only cities became BEAST late game. ;)


Honestly if this is what the "expac" is offering. I'm going to have to pass. I dont want to play a half civ, half real world map, that will get my panties in all kinds of bunches. What exactly is the point of messing with the map? I gather to make you really feel like you are exploring... but you dont need to change the map, just change the denizens and province goods.

If they make plenty of options to randomize only native tribe placement, and the goods while leaving the map as is, then perhaps I'd be interested... I just dont like the idea of deleting my home for some random glob crap.
 

Phi

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Civ games, as far as I remember, have a nice trick under their sleeves. You cannot zoom out and see the whole world at once. You always see a part of the world, and there's a lot of cluster to distract you from actually assessing the geological plausibility. And the Civ terrain is made of tiles. Well, they've done it for decades and I'm sure they have pretty sophisticated algorithms there, but even if the world actually sucks it's not going to stand out as much.

There exists a very nice Civ IV map mod that creates a good earth: rain forests in the middle, deserts at the tropics, mountains between continents, mountains between continents and the sea, wet areas on the one side of a mountain range, dry areas on the other side. I looked very good.