Random new Kingdom on Succession?

[NagaokaRepublic]

Hello!

In one of my recent CK2 games I had a very curious experience with gavelkind succession. I created a custom Kingdom in the baltics, which went without problem. I was tribal, so my succession law was elective gavelkind which was pretty okay for like 3-4 consecutive inheritances. Since I only had one Kingdom-level title I always lost a bit of my demense, but kept everybody as a vassal.
But then after I conquered two provinces with one of my rulers strange things happened. As he died, the game decided to split of my capital county into a new kingdom (the kingdom of Lithuania, which the county was no de jure part of). I never created this kingdom, the game just created it on its own. Also the province suddently became a feudal holding, even though it was tribal beforehand and the new ruler was still an unreformed pagan.

So now I am just really confused, it sucks to lose your main holding in which I had invested a ton of money/prestige and I am really not sure if this is a bug or intended. Can anybody explain the mechanics behind this or has anybody experienced the same?

 

[Sirrobert1]

Elective Gavelkind can create new top level titles (the same as your highest one) upon succession, to give to your other childs. Basically, this means that you can't cheese it and only have 1 Kingdom title, but 3 kingdoms worth of land.

I guess custom kingdom messed with this? Sounds like a weird bug.

 

[kmh42]

Hello!

In one of my recent CK2 games I had a very curious experience with gavelkind succession. I created a custom Kingdom in the baltics, which went without problem. I was tribal, so my succession law was elective gavelkind which was pretty okay for like 3-4 consecutive inheritances. Since I only had one Kingdom-level title I always lost a bit of my demense, but kept everybody as a vassal.
But then after I conquered two provinces with one of my rulers strange things happened. As he died, the game decided to split of my capital county into a new kingdom (the kingdom of Lithuania, which the county was no de jure part of). I never created this kingdom, the game just created it on its own. Also the province suddently became a feudal holding, even though it was tribal beforehand and the new ruler was still an unreformed pagan.

So now I am just really confused, it sucks to lose your main holding in which I had invested a ton of money/prestige and I am really not sure if this is a bug or intended. Can anybody explain the mechanics behind this or has anybody experienced the same?

This is fully mostly WAD. As with elective gavelkind the realm division takes creatable titles into his calculations. When you hold enough land to form another kingdoms, even you did not create it, it get created on your succession and past to the second heir (if there is one)
Gavelkind tries to split counties and duchies "logically". Let's say you hold Sweden and Denmark and one counties in both de jure areas. On succession two sons get one kingdom and the respective counties.
Now you have two kingdoms (one uncreated) and on succession. These means your first two sons get a kingdom and one counties in it. Now there are two possibilities:

1. The counties you lost is in fact the de jure kingdom of the other kingdom, because your custom capital has no de jure capital
2. You hold no land in one of the 2 kingdoms, so the second heir gets at least on counties which is you former capital.

The 'went feudal' think is a bug ASAIK

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

It's a ridiculous feature of elective Gavelkind.

On the first succession you didn't have enough land of Lithuania to form it.

 

[Sirrobert1]

It's a ridiculous feature of elective Gavelkind.

On the first succession you didn't have enough land of Lithuania to form it.

I disagree, I like it. Very effective in keeping tribes small.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

I disagree, I like it. Very effective in keeping tribes small.

The A.I. rarely will exploit normal gavelkind. They'll always create a title of they can.

Normal Gavelkind does the trick to destroy realms, all thos feature does is annoy players.

 

[brifbates]

The A.I. rarely will exploit normal gavelkind. They'll always create a title of they can.

Normal Gavelkind does the trick to destroy realms, all thos feature does is annoy players.

Kind of the intent. You are supposed to want to move away from tribalism/elective gavelkind ASAP...

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

The A.I. rarely will exploit normal gavelkind. They'll always create a title of they can.

Normal Gavelkind does the trick to destroy realms, all thos feature does is annoy players.

The AI actually specifically avoids creating new (equal) titles if they have gavelkind unless they need it to create a higher tier title.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

The AI actually specifically avoids creating new (equal) titles if they have gavelkind unless they need it to create a higher tier title.

Really?

Also I just realized that I made a typo on my earlier post, I need to stop posting from my phone!

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Really?

Also I just realized that I made a typo on my earlier post, I need to stop posting from my phone!

Just look at the Hautevilles in the 1066 bookmarks: there is only one duchy title (Apulia) and they won't create any more unless they've changed succession to primo or have enough land to create Sicily at which point they'll create all the titles they can.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

Just look at the Hautevilles in the 1066 bookmarks: there is only one duchy title (Apulia) and they won't create any more unless they've changed succession to primo or have enough land to create Sicily at which point they'll create all the titles they can.

Good example!

 

[Sirrobert1]

The A.I. rarely will exploit normal gavelkind. They'll always create a title of they can.

Normal Gavelkind does the trick to destroy realms, all thos feature does is annoy players.

I like it. Adds some massive gameplay to an otherwise way to strong realm.

My favourite example was when I was about to form Scandinavia. I had 3 Kingdoms, and was saving up for the Empire. Then my character unexpectedly died. What followed was a massive 3 way war between the brothers. And suddenly a faction installed me as new king in one of the other Kingdoms, after which I crushed the remaining brother.
One of my most fun CK2 moments ever. I love succession crises.

 

[NagaokaRepublic]

Now you have two kingdoms (one uncreated) and on succession. These means your first two sons get a kingdom and one counties in it. Now there are two possibilities:

1. The counties you lost is in fact the de jure kingdom of the other kingdom, because your custom capital has no de jure capital
2. You hold no land in one of the 2 kingdoms, so the second heir gets at least on counties which is you former capital.

The 'went feudal' think is a bug ASAIK

Thank you for explaining, I think I get the mechanics now! Generally speaking this seems to be a good feature, but in this particular case I think there are some big problems.
1. I created my custom kingdom with 3 duchies, making all of them de jure territory of my kingdom. This meant that the de jure kingdom of Lithuania was reduced to 5 unconnected counties which is imo a stupid mechanic.
2. I really disliked that I was given no warning whatsoever that I was about to lose my capital county. If there had been a warning I would have had a chance to build up the rest of my demense to be stronger and I wouldn't have taken the massive hit I did in this case (I lost about 2000 troops from that province, leaving me with only 700)

I'll probably use my de jure claim to retake the capital and try to create an independent Lithuania somewhere so it can't be created on succession.

Edit: Also it is kinda funny that all of my vassals who were part of de jure Lithuania stayed under my control, the new kingdom had literally zero vassals.

 

[Tapio]

I had that happen. I think I made a post on bug forum. One game I lost my de jure capital on succession and it became feudal. The issue then wasn't with custom kingdom though.