Rail & Other Logistics matters

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shri

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Most people aren't going to like this thread, the Reason i posted this thread is that i think that the single most important Campaign of the entire war was Operation Barbarossa (Victory here would have led to German overall victory or at-least a Cold War type peace and defeat here meant defeat everywhere).
It consumed 95% or more of the Soviet War effort, 75-80% of the German war effort and 90% of the German allies/puppets war efforts (Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland etc, though Finland wasn't a puppet and wasn't even formally allied in the anti-Comintern pact).
It also partially covers some- What Ifs of the North Africa Campaign.

In War, Russian Rail and Euro Rail (read: German) was different and this caused a lot of problems.
So, to increase the complexity of the War, i propose some modifiers -
(this will not be applicable to Pre-War Polish Lands and the Baltics and thus mainly apply in the operational regions of Heersgruppe Mitte and Heersgruppe Sud)

As soon as you attack (either as Russia or as Germany) - infra becomes "0" (standard HOI rules).
If you have no engineers, then time taken should be 7-10 days depending on "Assets" of the province (smaller and less useful province taking lesser time and so on.. ).
If you have X engineers attachments (X being >1), time taken is reduced by 1 day. (no cumulative nonsense and Engineer charges).

If you have a "Railway Conversion Battalion" (only available to Germans) - "Eisenbahntruppen", then time taken reduced by further 2 days to convert the Railway.
Eisenbahntruppen should have nearly "0" offense/defense abilities but should be only good to convert railways in USSR, Asia, North Africa etc. (you can loan 1 Battalion to the Italians once Rommel lands to help the Mersa-Martuh to Alexandria Railways). You can start with 5 battalions and gain 1 Battalion per year of War, which will mean 8 battalions at start of Operation Barbarossa (not too less but not too much to gain instant conversion).
Why i propose these is, Nazi Germany lacked Trucks and thus was dependent on Railways, you can build a mountain of Trucks as USA and start a "Red Ball Express" but most countries except USA cannot do that.

Some more info of these troops is found here and in several books - https://notquitemechanised.wordpress.com/2011/12/17/eisenbahntruppen-railway-troops/

If you have 1 Eisenbahntruppen battalion + 1 Engineer battalion, then time is cut to 4-7 days for each HEX to get converted, a saving of nearly 50% or more. Of course, if you lose a battalion, you incur costs and these should be limited in production and costly to reconstruct.
A trade-off between relentless advance and reckless conversion a la Guderian or take a cautious approach of von Bock or von Kluge is brought out with this tactic.
Another trade-off is that the USSR cannot advance fast in their counter-attacks as they will have to re-convert railways without such specialized equipment earning your armies "Breathing Space in between attacks".

Till the time Railway is converted, supply cannot pass and Supplies should run along the Railway lines and Major cities should be able to become "Forward Supply Bases (FSB)" like- Minsk, Smolensk, Kiev, Rostov etc. making them extremely essential to capture or defend.

Once an FSB is captured, supply in a 1 HEX region should be 100% but decline for every Hex by 10% and for more than 10 hexes, you get only 10% of total supply sent. (makes War in Pripyats very difficult). Thus it makes sense to keep the Panzers on the Railway lines or immediately adjacent at all times of the game and makes sense for the Russians to attack on a wide angle away from Railway lines. (if you have an excess of Trucks you will lose less supply).

Supply gets pushed forward and the Germans need to capture and hold the railway lines, each time a railway head/FSB or a Railway hex changes hands they lose supplies and thus holding Railways and converting them becomes very important.

Also, extra incentive to the USSR to keep launching the Counter-Attacks and cut of supply using Cavalry, Partisans etc.
 
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PaxHadrian

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This is an interesting idea. Have any of the DD or WW Wednesday's mentioned infrastructure hits or conversions? I don't know if HOI4 is built for the base game to accommodate this. If it is, wouldn't it be nice to be able to see a difference between the two different rail types in an infrastructure view?
 

LordOfWar16

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This is an interesting idea. Have any of the DD or WW Wednesday's mentioned infrastructure hits or conversions? I don't know if HOI4 is built for the base game to accommodate this. If it is, wouldn't it be nice to be able to see a difference between the two different rail types in an infrastructure view?
Infrastructure includes everything that has to do with infrastructure including Railways. Infrastructure gets damaged and destroyed when troops are fighting in that region, but you cant actively sabotage them, unlike factories which can be destroyed.

All nations get access to all the equipment, even tho some nations have country specific names for it as flavor.
 
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ingwe

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Interesting enough, but the issue is that infrastructure is more than just railroads. So nuking infrastructure to zero as you are proposing means you can't even advance when the real life issue was that the advance couldn't be supplied.

To me, the only good solution to adding this (the railroad gauge difference) beyond some level of abstraction would need actual railroads in the game.
 
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shri

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I am not suggesting nuking an advance, in fact i do not even think Bombers should be able to markedly target infra pre 1943-44, (as Historical); also Infra can be sabotaged and was Historically.
What i was suggesting is that - the War in the East was primarily fought along or parallel to the main roads and railway lines by the German army, this Historical progress needs to be mirrored, well into the offensive in 1941, the AGC command had nightmares about a possible offensive into the rear areas via the Pripyat Marshes and this was one of the reasons why Bock and Kluge agreed to Hitler's suggestions so easily and sent Guderian's Panzers to Gomel and Kiev instead of directly crashing into Moscow as Guderian wanted.

Partisans caused havoc mainly in the Heersgruppe Mitte (Army Group Centre- AGC) command areas as in the North, the Baltics and Finns were friendly to the Germans and in the South, it was Flat Ukranian Steppes which didn't afford too much of protection. Also in 1944, one of the many reasons for the total collapse of AGC was that the Red army sent an entire Army group via the Pripyat Marshes consisting of Cavalry and Infantry and dealt an awful blow to logistics.

Panzers weren't very successful operating far from rail heads and no country except the USA could have afforded a "RED BALL EXPRESS" (the USA itself couldn't afford it on a continued scale, only for a short time period) and thus Railways was of immense necessity in the entire war for all major combatants fighting in the European Theatre, not only to Germany. The Red Armies pre 1944 offensives often faltered due to slow "Railway Conversion + Scorched earth policy of the retreating Wehrmacht" which meant it would run out of its Logistics tail and stop or advance too far and have itself cut off and destroyed like the - 2nd and 3rd battles of Kharkov as also the "1st Iassi-Kishnev offensives" proved time and again under the leadership of alert German commanders like Reichenau and Manstein.
 
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ingwe

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I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said nuking. I was using that as a verb meaning "to completely reduce" in reference to your suggestion that infra should go to zero. I am not arguing that railroads weren't important--I am simply saying that I disagree with your mechanic design and think that a strategic effect or something would be better, unless railroads were a distinct thing in the game.
 

Porkman

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Your heart is entirely in the right place on this idea.

The actual proposed mechanics are something I don't like as they seem too Eastern Front specific and too fiddly.

The Soviets had their own units which converted recaptured railways back.

In any case, the main thing about rails is there existence and how fast they can be repaired/reguaged. That is better handled at the industrial level ordering improvements and prioritzing provinces rather than putting in an on map unit.
 
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shri

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I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said nuking. I was using that as a verb meaning "to completely reduce" in reference to your suggestion that infra should go to zero. I am not arguing that railroads weren't important--I am simply saying that I disagree with your mechanic design and think that a strategic effect or something would be better, unless railroads were a distinct thing in the game.

Oh ok, Well- let me tell you the problem with "Strategic effects" as shown in the game, the Eisenbahntruppen were specialised Railway troops drawing on the experience of Military control of the railway dating back to von Moltke Sr in the 1850s. These were not troops created at the "wish of the hand", these were specialised, limited in quantity, limited in size and extremely important but also purposely or consciously ignored by the Nazi Leadership during the war until it was too late. By giving a "Research resulting in Strategic effect", it will become too easy for the German player; my entire proposition rests on the facts that both the Germans in 1941-42-43 and then the Russians in 1942-43-44 were extremely limited in their offensive actions not due to lack of weapons but due to lack of "Logistics" a.k.a. the 1 million Truck problem.


Your heart is entirely in the right place on this idea.

The actual proposed mechanics are something I don't like as they seem too Eastern Front specific and too fiddly.

The Soviets had their own units which converted recaptured railways back.

In any case, the main thing about rails is there existence and how fast they can be repaired/reguaged. That is better handled at the industrial level ordering improvements and prioritzing provinces rather than putting in an on map unit.

Soviet Rail conversion was slow and this was the reason many of their operations pre massive LL by the USA in late 1943 flopped, their armies simply overran the logistics train and often got cut-off and destroyed, that they could afford to replace these lost armies at will was totally another matter.
I have already said why i have asked for an Eastern Front specific event, as it happened Historically the War was Lost/Won by Germany on the Eastern front, the remaining fronts were totally tertiary in importance (despite a lot of TOM-TOM by the UK), Italy itself was of dubious value to the Axis and the AXIS minors were just "minors", Japan waged a totally separate war in the Pacific not remotely connected with the Eastern Angle.
It was 2 processes running parallel without any connection between them, except at times they incidentally fought common enemies.

From late 1943 and in 1944, the 10 Blows of Stalin type offensives could be planned and executed by STAVKA simply due to the avalanche of the STUDEBAKERS in the Russian Transport Fleet, Rails became secondary and the Red Army could continue the offensive into the 3rd, 4th and 5th week of operations and deal a death blow to Heersgruppe Mitte.
Yet even in 1944 at various places due to logistics things got out of control, Iassi-Kishinev is but the most prominent example, but there were dozens more.
 
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Porkman

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Oh ok, Well- let me tell you the problem with "Strategic effects" as shown in the game, the Eisenbahntruppen were specialised Railway troops drawing on the experience of Military control of the railway dating back to von Moltke Sr in the 1850s. These were not troops created at the "wish of the hand", these were specialised, limited in quantity, limited in size and extremely important but also purposely or consciously ignored by the Nazi Leadership during the war until it was too late. By giving a "Research resulting in Strategic effect", it will become too easy for the German player; my entire proposition rests on the facts that both the Germans in 1941-42-43 and then the Russians in 1942-43-44 were extremely limited in their offensive actions not due to lack of weapons but due to lack of "Logistics" a.k.a. the 1 million Truck problem.

Most armies had dedicated troops for handling the railroads and logistics. The US had the Transportation Corp and the Military railroads service. The Soviets had the Rear Area Services that gradually specialized. (Though they had rail building and engineer battalions since the Civil War.) The Japanese were constantly building railroads (See the Thai Burma railroad) and also repairing sabotaged railroads in China.

I am entirely in agreement about the limit being the lack of logistics and rail capacity, but there is no reason to make the Germans railway ubermensch.

Soviet Rail conversion was slow and this was the reason many of their operations pre massive LL by the USA in late 1943 flopped, their armies simply overran the logistics train and often got cut-off and destroyed, that they could afford to replace these lost armies at will was totally another matter.

I have already said why i have asked for an Eastern Front specific event, as it happened Historically the War was Lost/Won by Germany on the Eastern front, the remaining fronts were totally tertiary in importance (despite a lot of TOM-TOM by the UK), Italy itself was of dubious value to the Axis and the AXIS minors were just "minors", Japan waged a totally separate war in the Pacific not remotely connected with the Eastern Angle.

It was 2 processes running parallel without any connection between them, except at times they incidentally fought common enemies.

From late 1943 and in 1944, the 10 Blows of Stalin type offensives could be planned and executed by STAVKA simply due to the avalanche of the STUDEBAKERS in the Russian Transport Fleet, Rails became secondary and the Red Army could continue the offensive into the 3rd, 4th and 5th week of operations and deal a death blow to Heersgruppe Mitte.
Yet even in 1944 at various places due to logistics things got out of control, Iassi-Kishinev is but the most prominent example, but there were dozens more.

The problem with an Eastern Front specific event iis that rails were actually far more important in areas that weren't as built up.

See this map of the occupation of China where Japan was entirely dependent on rails.

China-map1.jpg
 
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shri

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@Porkman
If you read through my post, i had said we need to restrict "Rail Conversion speed", i had proposed Germans to start with 5 battalions and gain 1 per year once the War starts (1 every 12 months of war), this means by late 1944 you will have only 10 battalions and can convert only 10 places at a time, not UBERMENSCH at all.
In earlier HOI versions you could convert 30 at a time (sometimes).

As for the Japanese "Death Railway" via Thailand, Burma etc, it never got completely built and never successfully transported an army of millions.
Also the Americans totally ignored the rails in 1944 and started the "Red Ball Express", of course they were the only nation who could afford to even think about such things.
And the big UK offensives in North Africa also ran on "Studebaker trucks by the thousands".

So, basically before USA sent those thousands of trucks, both UK and USSR found it difficult to attack, though UK more so due to their bad doctrines and bad leaders than due to lack of equipment. USSR also somewhat similar.
 

Porkman

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@Porkman
If you read through my post, i had said we need to restrict "Rail Conversion speed", i had proposed Germans to start with 5 battalions and gain 1 per year once the War starts (1 every 12 months of war), this means by late 1944 you will have only 10 battalions and can convert only 10 places at a time, not UBERMENSCH at all.
In earlier HOI versions you could convert 30 at a time (sometimes).

As for the Japanese "Death Railway" via Thailand, Burma etc, it never got completely built and never successfully transported an army of millions.
Also the Americans totally ignored the rails in 1944 and started the "Red Ball Express", of course they were the only nation who could afford to even think about such things.
And the big UK offensives in North Africa also ran on "Studebaker trucks by the thousands".

So, basically before USA sent those thousands of trucks, both UK and USSR found it difficult to attack, though UK more so due to their bad doctrines and bad leaders than due to lack of equipment. USSR also somewhat similar.

The problem with granular rail construction units is that only the Germans have them when everyone had them. Making it so only Germany gets railway troops is ahistorical and it would be bad as an on map unit since they would be inevitably lost when sorting through 200 divisions.

The limiter on railway conversion was industrial capacity and rolling stock, the people could be found

The US didn't ignore the rails. The Red Ball Express was a temporary stopgap while they rebuilt the French network.

The Japanese did move millions via rail through China. They were constantly rebuilding the rails since they were easy to sabotage.
 
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ingwe

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Totally agree with you Porkman (if I am understanding you correctly). I would like the historical reality to be present in the game, but I don't care for the proposed mechanic.

As I said earlier in the thread: if you actually want to have a convincing mechanic in this game, I think railroads need to be present.
 

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Whilst your knowledge of history is commendable saying that a game should mirror history for me renders it a simulation not a game. I have no problem with increasing the strategic and logistical depth but I have to draw the line at such granular detail.
 
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CrasherZZ

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Whilst your knowledge of history is commendable saying that a game should mirror history for me renders it a simulation not a game. I have no problem with increasing the strategic and logistical depth but I have to draw the line at such granular detail.
Yes, I would have to agree with your assessment. While I love historical simulation, a game can't be a real game if "too" historically accurate. A game is really entertainment, after all, and the historical stuff is "flavor" and "color". Historical accuracy is highly desirable, but not to the point that it interferes with the dynamics and fun of the game. There's just a large, murky, gray area between historical simulation and an entertaining wargame.
 
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Mr.Bajskorv

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If you had railway some could argue that just having a standard railway would be highly unhistorical due to the fact that different nations have different railstandards.

I'm very content with the fact its just an overall infrastructure feature. It'a a game.
 

teamgene

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I don't believe the Germans converted the track beyond Kharkov. If my memory serves, supplies stopped there and had to be unloaded and then loaded Russian gauged cars. But I would rather wait til the game comes out before talking about changes.
 
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Porkman

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Whilst your knowledge of history is commendable saying that a game should mirror history for me renders it a simulation not a game. I have no problem with increasing the strategic and logistical depth but I have to draw the line at such granular detail.

Yes, I would have to agree with your assessment. While I love historical simulation, a game can't be a real game if "too" historically accurate. A game is really entertainment, after all, and the historical stuff is "flavor" and "color". Historical accuracy is highly desirable, but not to the point that it interferes with the dynamics and fun of the game. There's just a large, murky, gray area between historical simulation and an entertaining wargame.

If you had railway some could argue that just having a standard railway would be highly unhistorical due to the fact that different nations have different railstandards.

I'm very content with the fact its just an overall infrastructure feature. It'a a game.

This is why rail mechanics need to be well thought out.

Shri, this is the problem with going for an Eastern Front railway gauge focus with granular battalions.

It's too fiddly and it turns people off to the basic idea of roads and rails being important.

It needs to be intuitive and separate from ordering troops around.
 
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