Yakman

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Gwalcmai said:
If there were trade routes in the game, then you could have pirates attacking those routes, hurting the centers of trade at both ends (or whatever trade routes ran between).
This would be ideal. Also, it would help with privateers.
 
M

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Pishtaco said:
This would also make it easier to model the economic effect of navies, since tracing supply routes and trade routes would become feasible.

Thats right. The naval game could be soooo interesting with the ability to greater impact on economics.

I also like George LeS idea in combition with my own. Not sure about the ramifications, its late here ;), but would be an interesting idea to explore.
 

George LeS

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Pishtaco said:
If all the interesting decisions made by the player happen at one level of abstraction, I don't see why you should model it at a lower level of abstraction.

If you choose too high a level of abstraction, there won't be any interesting decisions. Strategy lies in choosing between different options. If there are few options, there's little strategy. Players will, after a few games, work out the optimum strategies, & there won't be anything to do. There will be no point in the French even trying to break the RN's supremacy.

Allowing players to send out fleets, but very strictly limit their control, once sent, will allow many more options. There would be the guessing game, and the gamble of commiting yourself without realling knowing the outcome, or even the odds of the outcome, & there would be the surprise & disruption of occaisional events which would allow, & force you to make a change (mostly, if a naval battle should occur). It would permit, in short, players to try as many various strategies as their ingenuity can create. I don't see this happening with a highly abstract system.

One thing I would do, rather abstractly, is putting raiders in a status like the current patrol, & their captures would NOT count as contact with the enemy, & not give opportunity to change their orders. Only sighting a real enemy fleet would do that.
 

unmerged(6303)

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George LeS said:
If you choose too high a level of abstraction, there won't be any interesting decisions. Strategy lies in choosing between different options. If there are few options, there's little strategy. Players will, after a few games, work out the optimum strategies, & there won't be anything to do. There will be no point in the French even trying to break the RN's supremacy.

Allowing players to send out fleets, but very strictly limit their control, once sent, will allow many more options. There would be the guessing game, and the gamble of commiting yourself without realling knowing the outcome, or even the odds of the outcome, & there would be the surprise & disruption of occaisional events which would allow, & force you to make a change (mostly, if a naval battle should occur). It would permit, in short, players to try as many various strategies as their ingenuity can create. I don't see this happening with a highly abstract system.

One thing I would do, rather abstractly, is putting raiders in a status like the current patrol, & their captures would NOT count as contact with the enemy, & not give opportunity to change their orders. Only sighting a real enemy fleet would do that.


What I meant was, if the kind of orders you give are "patrol the Western Mediterranean and engage any enemies you find there", then the game does not need seazones smaller than "Western Mediterranean".
 

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Allow me to make a suggestion.
The player should be able to issue "letters of marque" for a searegion. For example, The Northsea or The South Carribian. He should also be able to say what ships the privateer may attack. Hurting your rivals but leaving your, temporary;), allies alone. At no cost privateers would appear. Privateers were not paid by the governmen after all. How many of them appear should depend on the player's naval slider, the amount of coastal provinces his homeland has (only provinces on the same continent as his capital count) and chance. The wealth of the searegion should also be involved. The amount of traderoutes passing through it and how rich the ajoining coastal provinces are. After al, the carribiean can sustain more acitvity then the central pacific. Distance should also play a role
20% Of the booty goes to the player. If the letter is issued in times of war there is no cost (perhaps some money, but not a lot). When issued in peactime there should be a BB hit and a reduction in relations with the targeted countries.
So is there no catch?
Of course there is.
If pickings are slim or when peace breaks out there should be a, big?, chance of the privateer turning pirate, attacking any commercial shipping in the region, including yours, and also able to go to a different region where there is more looting to be had.
Navies can be used to suppress both pirates and privateers.
 

George LeS

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Pishtaco said:
What I meant was, if the kind of orders you give are "patrol the Western Mediterranean and engage any enemies you find there", then the game does not need seazones smaller than "Western Mediterranean".

Well, the scale of "W Med" is a lot different than "N Atl", & some of my objections are lessened thereby. (Although, in itself, it's a bad choice, almost all the Med is coastal; nonetheless, I get your drift.)

One thing I would support, which would make this compatible with seazones as they are, or even as I'd like them, would be to have ships "scouting" or "cruising" treated as occupying a group of seazones, sort of like an electron shell. This would not apply to battlefleets, transports, etc, but would apply to the trade war. I also would support using 3 shades of blue to create big metazones out of existing seazones, if done so that modders could could use either concept.

Registered said:
Allow me to make a suggestion.
The player should be able to issue "letters of marque" for a searegion. For example, The Northsea or The South Carribian. He should also be able to say what ships the privateer may attack. Hurting your rivals but leaving your, temporary;), allies alone. At no cost privateers would appear. Privateers were not paid by the governmen after all. How many of them appear should depend on the player's naval slider, the amount of coastal provinces his homeland has (only provinces on the same continent as his capital count) and chance. The wealth of the searegion should also be involved. The amount of traderoutes passing through it and how rich the ajoining coastal provinces are. After al, the carribiean can sustain more acitvity then the central pacific. Distance should also play a role
20% Of the booty goes to the player. If the letter is issued in times of war there is no cost (perhaps some money, but not a lot). When issued in peactime there should be a BB hit and a reduction in relations with the targeted countries.
So is there no catch?
Of course there is.
If pickings are slim or when peace breaks out there should be a, big?, chance of the privateer turning pirate, attacking any commercial shipping in the region, including yours, and also able to go to a different region where there is more looting to be had.
Navies can be used to suppress both pirates and privateers.

This is a good idea. Privateers aren't really well replicated, now. As time goes by, the odds of their turning pirate should probably decrease. I don't think that many Yanks went pirate when we won our independence, or French after the the same war. But 50-100 years earlier, it was a real likelihood.
 

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George LeS said:
This is a good idea. Privateers aren't really well replicated, now. As time goes by, the odds of their turning pirate should probably decrease. I don't think that many Yanks went pirate when we won our independence, or French after the the same war. But 50-100 years earlier, it was a real likelihood.
Sounds like a good idea yes.
Also one additoin to what i said earlier. I think that when you commisoin the privateers you should be able to set the amount of time they should remain active. And as long as they remain active against states neutral to you you should get a constant stream of BB. Say 1 point per one or two years.
This should prevent people from exploiting the system to get an enormous amount of money.
 

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Registered said:
Sounds like a good idea yes.
Also one additoin to what i said earlier. I think that when you commisoin the privateers you should be able to set the amount of time they should remain active. And as long as they remain active against states neutral to you you should get a constant stream of BB. Say 1 point per one or two years.
This should prevent people from exploiting the system to get an enormous amount of money.

Strictly, they shouldn't prey on states neutral to you, but of course...
 

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George LeS said:
Strictly, they shouldn't prey on states neutral to you, but of course...
Strictly speaking not, no. But if the player (or, say, the Barbary AI) wants to turn his state piratical he should be able to do so, but at a mounting BB cost.
 

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Registered said:
Strictly speaking not, no. But if the player (or, say, the Barbary AI) wants to turn his state piratical he should be able to do so, but at a mounting BB cost.

I don't know if I agree with this. But I am posting about something else: let's say it's a diplomatic cost, not a BB cost. BB was brought in as a fix, since the diplomatic system wasn't working; it would be nice to do without it.
 

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Pishtaco said:
I don't know if I agree with this. But I am posting about something else: let's say it's a diplomatic cost, not a BB cost. BB was brought in as a fix, since the diplomatic system wasn't working; it would be nice to do without it.
Well there should be a reduction in relations obviously, and a CB for the targeted nation. Problem is that the player might not care about that.
Another possibility would be a reduction in prestige, if that is in and significant.
 
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Pishtaco said:
I don't know if I agree with this. But I am posting about something else: let's say it's a diplomatic cost, not a BB cost. BB was brought in as a fix, since the diplomatic system wasn't working; it would be nice to do without it.
Indeed. BB has too big an effect on long term, while what it depicts should more adequately bring consequences short term.

Having BB decrease quite fast is what I'd wish for, but at the same time BB shouldn't be limited to province-gains, DoWs and annexations.