Ragusan Trade

[cetvrtak]

Just like I had a lot of trouble comprehending Trade in EU3, so it is in EU4.

Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? Why is there so much Outgoing?

 

[carazvan]

Watch Reman's video to get one of the best description of the trade system and how it's individual parts work.

As a quick answer to your question it seems like Hungary and Austria have light ships protecting trade which is giving them lots of trade power to move the ducats out of Ragusa

 

[cetvrtak]

Watch Reman's video to get one of the best description of the trade system and how it's individual parts work.

As a quick answer to your question it seems like Hungary and Austria have light ships protecting trade which is giving them lots of trade power to move the ducats out of Ragusa

Will do.

As for Hungary and Austria, they have something called inland caravans that gives them 50 trade power. I don't know how to stop this madness. I tried embargoing Austria, but it didn't help, they retained their merchant in Ragusa?!?

 

[zedyue]

Ragusa is a terrible home node, it transfers both to TWO end nodes (venice/genoa) both of which have considerable strong provinces and countries with ships and trade power, but also to the inland node of Wien - which means the caravan power modifier from NEARLY EVERY country downstream starts to pull trade away somewhat. Ragusa also has very little trade power itself in provinces compared to every other node around it.

For any country with a capital in the ragusa node, it is recommended to conquer either to the node of Venice or Constantinople. Both are significantly easier to hold power in. Venice because it literally cannot transfer trade anywhere, and Constantinople because it only loses power to the Ragusa node, which as mentioned is very weak.

TL DR - you're not necessarily doing anything wrong, but the Ragusa node is inherently leaky

(You theoretically could stop the leak but it involves conquering most of the venice and wien and genoa nodes anyway...)

 

[cetvrtak]

Ragusa is a terrible home node, it transfers both to TWO end nodes (venice/genoa) both of which have considerable strong provinces and countries with ships and trade power, but also to the inland node of Wien - which means the caravan power modifier from NEARLY EVERY country downstream starts to pull trade away somewhat. Ragusa also has very little trade power itself in provinces compared to every other node around it.

For any country with a capital in the ragusa node, it is recommended to conquer either to the node of Venice or Constantinople. Both are significantly easier to hold power in. Venice because it literally cannot transfer trade anywhere, and Constantinople because it only loses power to the Ragusa node, which as mentioned is very weak.

TL DR - you're not necessarily doing anything wrong, but the Ragusa node is inherently leaky

(You theoretically could stop the leak but it involves conquering most of the venice and wien and genoa nodes anyway...)

Yeah, I just watched the video guide, and that would have been my next question: What's a good strategy for Ragusa? On top of those disadvantages you named, there's also only one upstream node - Constantinopol, so basically the 3 merchants I get from being Merchant Republic don't really have much work to do.

 

[zedyue]

As ragusa you really just have to rely on whatever trade you can get, most of your money will be tax or production until you conquer and get strong into probably the venice node and italy money. Then your trade should be respectable.

 

[PhoenixG]

Will do.

As for Hungary and Austria, they have something called inland caravans that gives them 50 trade power. I don't know how to stop this madness. I tried embargoing Austria, but it didn't help, they retained their merchant in Ragusa?!?

You can't, since they push trade to Wien and it's an inland trade node. Only thing you can do is decrease their dev in the Wien node

 

[ecrurudesby]

The Ragusa node should be abolished and its provices added to the Venice, Wien, and Constantinople nodes; and the Krakow node should take some provinces from the Wien and Constantinople nodes to prevent them from becoming too big. Something like this (quick MS Paint job):

 

[zedyue]

@ecrurudesby That considerably weakens the GENOA node as it can steal from the Ragusa node. Otherwise you have to allow it to steal from the Venice node and that weakens the Venice node. I think that would be an overall undesirable change.

I'd rather some other compensation be done to provinces in the Ragusa node to make up for the fact that they aren't really profitable trade-wise in the current system.

 

[PhoenixG]

It would be doable if you can push trade from constantinople to Genoa. Imo of the 3 end node, Genoa is the strongest and often the richest one

 

[ecrurudesby]

That considerably weakens the GENOA node

Would that be the worst thing? As it stands Global Trade almost always originates in the Genoa node. Meanwhile Venice is not as rich as I think it should be. It has 22 provinces with one estuary and two CoTs. Genoa on the other hand has 45 provinces with two estuaries and five CoTs. I know number of provinces is not a reliable indicator of wealth in a node but CoTs can be because they affect how much trade can be pulled from upstream nodes; and I just can't help feeling like a mere 22 provinces is underwhelming. Venice has three incoming routes and Genoa has five. Venice is very much the smallest sibling out of the three end nodes, and in the early game at least, I don't think it should be.

 

[ThatRabidPotato]

Part of what makes Genoa so rich is that it can suck from Sevilla, so in addition to being able to pull straight from Alexandria, Champagne, and Ragusa, it also gets dibs on all of Portugal and Spain's colonial trade. Once Castile forms Spain it will always switch its trade port to Valencia and use all its power in Sevilla to transfer into Genoa. I've seen that node get over 100 trade value by 1580.

 

[peleliu]

Be aware that an embargo in EU4 doesn't remove hostile merchants. An embargo reduces the trade power of the target nation based on the trade power you have in nodes where you both have merchants. An embargo is useful for weakening enemy income, but is not the gut punch I recall from EU3. An embargo does, however, give you Power Projection which is always good.

To get the best out of trade income in the early game you have to try a combination of collecting from trade, steering, and privateers. The best combination can shift several times a year, but most people don't micromanage at that level. I do tend to micromanage it in the early game because ducats are so hard to come by in the beginning. As your trade power grows you will probably want to focus steering trade into your primary node and turn all light ships to protecting trade. Watch the progress of wars even if you are not involved in them because devastation in provinces can really alter the flow of trade (sometimes to your advantage...but most often not) and adjust where your merchants and light ships are accordingly.

 

[cetvrtak]

Be aware that an embargo in EU4 doesn't remove hostile merchants. An embargo reduces the trade power of the target nation based on the trade power you have in nodes where you both have merchants. An embargo is useful for weakening enemy income, but is not the gut punch I recall from EU3. An embargo does, however, give you Power Projection which is always good.

To get the best out of trade income in the early game you have to try a combination of collecting from trade, steering, and privateers. The best combination can shift several times a year, but most people don't micromanage at that level. I do tend to micromanage it in the early game because ducats are so hard to come by in the beginning. As your trade power grows you will probably want to focus steering trade into your primary node and turn all light ships to protecting trade. Watch the progress of wars even if you are not involved in them because devastation in provinces can really alter the flow of trade (sometimes to your advantage...but most often not) and adjust where your merchants and light ships are accordingly.

Is there any point in placing merchants two or three nodes upstream to steer?

Can provinces switch between nodes?

How do I create Centers of Trade?

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Is there any point in placing merchants two or three nodes upstream to steer?

Can provinces switch between nodes?

How do I create Centers of Trade?

Merchants are best used either for collecting (10% trade income boost in capital node, large trade power malus in others, which is to say... you should only collect in main node unless you have a large share of the power in a node that doesn't transfer to your main node) or steering in nodes where you have sizable power but they have multiple outgoing routes so you make sure your share flows the right way (in some cases, if nobody uses a merchant to steer you can use your own merchant to steer all the trade your way regardless of power, example can usually be seen in Chengdu to Bengal where Ming can't afford to place a merchant). It's kind of hard to explain efficient trading in a single post, it really takes a lot of experience or taking your time with guides.

The trade nodes are fixed and Centers of Trade are not dynamic like in EU3, but there are some events, decisions and whatnot (merchant republics can create one trade post per node that gets a bit of extra trade power) that can increase trade power in a province (also, some colonizable provinces start with important natural harbors that eventually become CoTs, but that's kinda redundant). It's also worth noting that while there are nodes called Venice, Ragusa or Genoa, they are not strictly centered around these provinces and if all other province modifiers are equal, a Trade Center in Florence is as good as the one in Genoa.

 

[cetvrtak]

Merchants are best used either for collecting or steering in nodes where you have sizable power but they have multiple outgoing routes so you make sure your share flows the right way

Constantinopol has only one outgoing route (Ragusa) but I think I could use a merchant and a fleet to take a chunk of the trade that would otherwise remain there to be collected. Or not?

This transfered Trade Value is then shared proportionaly between merchants in Ragusa, right? So I'm not sure if this has any meaningful effect, even with my monthly profit being as low as 1.69.

 

[bbqftw]

Ragusan trade is an oxymoron. You conquer Constantinople node or Venice node or are doomed to the everlasting poverty.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Constantinopol has only one outgoing route (Ragusa) but I think I could use a merchant and a fleet to take a chunk of the trade that would otherwise remain there to be collected. Or not?

This transfered Trade Value is then shared proportionaly between merchants in Ragusa, right? So I'm not sure if this has any meaningful effect, even with my monthly profit being as low as 1.69.

Ah, forgot to mention that unless you collect or the node is downstream from your main node, you automatically use your share to steer so since Constantinople only has that one route going out, you don't actually need a merchant (and you can send a fleet as well). But as mentioned, Ragusa is practically the worst node in the game to keep value so you really need to go for Venice or Constantinople.

 

[cetvrtak]

Ragusan trade is an oxymoron.

Well, Ragusa is a Merchant Republic.

Spoiler

We'll see if it stays that way in the future

Ah, forgot to mention that unless you collect or the node is downstream from your main node, you automatically use your share to steer so since Constantinople only has that one route going out, you don't actually need a merchant (and you can send a fleet as well). But as mentioned, Ragusa is practically the worst node in the game to keep value so you really need to go for Venice or Constantinople.

Thanks, I think I'm finally starting to figure this out (much quicker than Trade in EU3 I'm now collecting in Ragusa 0.88, Venice 0.72 and Constan... 0.22 which is a significant improvement from starting trade income of 0.47.

 

[peleliu]

As an example of how there may be need to shift merchants from node to node and from collecting to steering I can use my recent Portugal start. I tried various combination, but got the most stable return collecting in Seville, collecting in Safi, and privateering Genoa. As my trade power and value grew in Seville I turned the Safi merchant to steering and moved the Seville merchant to Tunis. You auto-collect in your home node and the the 20% boost to trade power from the steering merchants overcame the bonus from collecting in Seville. Privateering Genoa is still getting me more ducats than protecting trade, but they will be shifted to another node or start protecting trade once anti-pirate patrols start hurting me or the trade protection bonus starts netting more gold.