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berhaven

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Hey,
I was reading this thread after a long time, and I still think some of the points aren't solved.
 

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we could petition Johan for an upgrade to the AI trading ability...
 

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Isaac Brock said:
Potentially everyone outside Europe could be made more land to reduce their tradin efficiency.
I think that's a great suggestion. After all, the rest of the world never really had navies in the sense the Europeans did. Additionally, what fleets they did have were pathetic--the Portugese took control of the entire Indian Ocean spice trade with ~50 - 75 caravels.
 

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i think the basic answer to the points raised was:

1. you cant help AI dominate trade in East Indies or elsewhere even if you restrict local merchants, unless you restrict it so badly that it breaks human gameplay of local powers or makes it completely unrealistic.

2. it's already too easy for human europeans to dominate trade all over the world.

this is the same as what PE was saying above, which is the same as saying the problem is unresolvable.

however, the latest beta changes to TE when trade agreements are reached may have great effects on human's abililty to dominate trade all over the world (#2 above). we'll have to see how it turns out.
 

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For the "dominance on long range trading" the only thing I can think as working properly is an event-driven authomatic embargo on everybody when an European power seizes (or gets) an overseas CoT, with all the implications of embargoes (creates CB and so on).
I do not remember whether or not goods produced can be changed by events. If yes, I'm very much in favor of changing the colonial productions (cotton, sugar, coffee) in the Americas to something like grain or fish at scenario start, and have events firing when colonization reaches a given level (say 4 or 6) which asks for the introduction of colonial plantation. This could also generate a local demand for slave labour. If it is not possible, then we have to think how we can act on it. Could be just working on tax levels.
 

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berhaven said:
For the "dominance on long range trading" the only thing I can think as working properly is an event-driven authomatic embargo on everybody when an European power seizes (or gets) an overseas CoT, with all the implications of embargoes (creates CB and so on).
You can't start an embargo by event. EVen if you could the AI would probably drop it.
I do not remember whether or not goods produced can be changed by events.
They cannot
If it is not possible, then we have to think how we can act on it. Could be just working on tax levels.
But this isn't addressing trade at all, as tax levels have no effect on trade (except for the tax values of COT provinces).

I'm not as convinced that there isn't a problem as PE is. When it is immensely more favourable for Portugal to go after Brazil as soon as possible rather than explore to India, something is very wrong. However, I cannot think of much that can be done.
 

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berhaven said:
This can be true for the XVIII century, once the trade level of a Trader State player can be 8 or more. It does not to be very true for - say - Portugal in early XVI century, i.e. the time when historically they had their golden era. The chance and cost of getting (and keeping) a monopoly in Malacca once they own it is likely to disrupt its economy.

Maybe editing the tech files is the solution? It sounds like what you want is a bigger impact for early trade levels, and an equal or even smaller impact for the later levels. IIRC, the current model works in reverse, where trade 4 isn't much better than trade 3, but trade 9 has a gigantic bonus over trade 7.
 

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Perhaps we're just thinking about this too hard. The AI is stupid with its traders, however we do this. Therefore, the AI will probably find a way to screw it up whatever we do, unless we make it too godly unfair for humans outside europe. Personally, I don't think this is important enough or likely enough to reach an agreeable solution to warrant so much attention right now. We can come back to it later, maybe during the next update.
 

berhaven

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Isaac Brock said:
You can't start an embargo by event. EVen if you could the AI would probably drop it.

They cannot

But this isn't addressing trade at all, as tax levels have no effect on trade (except for the tax values of COT provinces).

I'm not as convinced that there isn't a problem as PE is. When it is immensely more favourable for Portugal to go after Brazil as soon as possible rather than explore to India, something is very wrong. However, I cannot think of much that can be done.

What did we do for the "sugar in the azores (or canaries)" event?
The basic mechanism should be the same.

You are right about tax level. I probably meant production level or something.
What you said in the end is sad and true.
I will start thinking about something that can give real value to the route to ther Indias.


Zander said:
Maybe editing the tech files is the solution? It sounds like what you want is a bigger impact for early trade levels, and an equal or even smaller impact for the later levels. IIRC, the current model works in reverse, where trade 4 isn't much better than trade 3, but trade 9 has a gigantic bonus over trade 7.

I like this. With a couple of doubts about side effects (Hansa and Italian Republics get an unwanted bonus and I see problems in reversing the advantage later on during the game).
 

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the effectiveness of merchants of each level i believe is hardcoded. so you cannot change it. the only thing you could do is increase all of europe's trade tech, at the risk of unknown effects to gameplay.
 

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Sun_Zi_36 said:
the effectiveness of merchants of each level i believe is hardcoded. so you cannot change it.

Isn't it simply related to trade efficiency? So (for instance) by having refineries eveywhere you could make Euro traders better. Not that I'd advocate such a change :)
 

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Isaac Brock said:
Isn't it simply related to trade efficiency? So (for instance) by having refineries eveywhere you could make Euro traders better. Not that I'd advocate such a change :)
Yes. The trade level is not important - the trade efficiency is.
 
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A question: is not the population affecting productione, therefore trade?

I mean if population from ie 10 became 50 isn't it that production of ie fish in a province became ie from 5d to 10d and isn't it that this production went into the COT, linked to the province, seize-value?
 

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Sun_Zi_36 said:
the effectiveness of merchants of each level i believe is hardcoded. so you cannot change it. the only thing you could do is increase all of europe's trade tech, at the risk of unknown effects to gameplay.

I was under the impression that there were data files for technology, which include the base TE for each trade level. I could certainly be wrong, though, as I've never tried editing tech files. (We did discuss doing that for land tech, though, yes?)
 

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Zander said:
I was under the impression that there were data files for technology, which include the base TE for each trade level. I could certainly be wrong, though, as I've never tried editing tech files. (We did discuss doing that for land tech, though, yes?)
yes, i thought it was the trade level rather than trade efficiency that is important. so it is changeable. but bcoz of that editing tech files is no different from putting all europeans at a higher tech level anyway (except ability to do a few tricks), and then it would probably mess up everything in the gameplay just as it would if all europeans start at higher trade tech. i dont think it's worth testing really. for the small benefit of europeans doing better in foreign markets, you have to increase all europeans' trade tech or trade eff in the trade tech, to whichever level that is tested to not affect gameplay, and not knowing whether it will actually help. but i guess someone might like to try.
 

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Isn't this discussion pointless? I think we've established that there is no consensus that Europeans need any help in dominating Asian markets. The only thing that may need modification is the trading AIs.
 

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Well, it was stated that Europe had (if anything) too MUCH ease in late game trade, and not enough in the early game. That's why I suggested switching the trade techs around...
 

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doktarr said:
Isn't this discussion pointless? I think we've established that there is no consensus that Europeans need any help in dominating Asian markets. The only thing that may need modification is the trading AIs.

I do not think Europeans need help in dominating Asian market. I think that the current setting do not give any kind of interest in finding an early way to get directly to them. That is what IRL gave birth to the Iberian Golden Age.
The point is just to reflect the role of long range trade, something that was done much better in EU1. Events that give you free merchants or money as long as you have a chain of naval bases from Europe to Asiatic CoTs with less that three weeks of navigation between each other? Maybe.
Events that - again - give you merchants and/or money if you have the strongest fleet east of Good Hope Cape? Maybe it's even better. Currently the cost for Portugal to conquer, run and defend CoTs in the Far East makes it a bad choice, both for human players and AI.