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unmerged(84132)

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How do you know? I still don't know how to tell how far radar actually reaches. It would be nice if I clicked on one if it showed me somehow, but either I am blind (which is possible) or you really can't tell.

The only way I can tell is after a upgrade. After every level, a few more HQS pop up onto my screen.

The only way to tell how far it reaches (as far as I know), is too look and see how far the furthest visible HQ is (that is not owned by you or your allies).
 

unmerged(84132)

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Would it be substantially more expensive to go
North Sea Coast
East Prussia
Southern Austria

as a german radar set up?

20-40 more IC (depending on how high your practical is), plus the months it takes. That is a few divisions worth of IC (depending on type etc).

If you can accomplish most of what you want with one, why multiple?

Right now he can see pretty much all of England, France, Poland, and parts of Spain and Russia. I do not think there is much more to gain by having 3 lvl 10 radars so close.

Now after France and Poland are annexed, I would build one in south western France and one and south eastern Poland (there would be something to gain from these radars. If he is the world domination type, he could even wait til he annexes Spain to build another radar.

Atleast in the beginning, IC is very valuable, especially if you want to keep your expansion going at a fast rate.

In Short, there is not much to gain from having a bunch of level 10 radars that close (especially since you do not need triangulation). Now if they ever add triangulation and some uncertainty about HQ locations, it might be beneficial to build lots of radar stations.
 

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The only way I can tell is after a upgrade. After every level, a few more HQS pop up onto my screen.

The only way to tell how far it reaches (as far as I know), is too look and see how far the furthest visible HQ is (that is not owned by you or your allies).
so you really don't know then...because there could be another HQ in the next province that you just dont reach - or the province could be empty. you never know ;)

and btw I still don't like this. 10 radar stations in one place reach farther than if you spread them around...well I guess I can live with it, but I just don't like it.
 

egslim

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How do you know? I still don't know how to tell how far radar actually reaches. It would be nice if I clicked on one if it showed me somehow, but either I am blind (which is possible) or you really can't tell.
This is actually realistic.

The quality of information obtained with your electronic information (radar) station drops off with distance, but you won't know exactly by how much without comparing your information from the station with validated information - which you don't have.

ETA: While multiple low-level radar stations add little long range intelligence compared to a single high-level station, are they useful for better aiding interceptors?
 

Von Thoma

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... okay as that 1 Radar is worthless in one place (I have 40 all around the coast and borders) ... I was building yesterday (January 1941) 99 pieces and put on 10 places 10x10 Radar ... now I see from calais and brest whole UK and from Memel to Mosocow :) and so on (Have Skilllevel 3 Radars at the moment) ...

THE ONLY THING WHICH SHOULD BE CHANGED is that Radar could only be build from the map interface to Level 2-10 !!! (Like Bunkers, Airports and Ports)
 

Geezuz

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This is actually realistic.

The quality of information obtained with your electronic information (radar) station drops off with distance, but you won't know exactly by how much without comparing your information from the station with validated information - which you don't have.

ETA: While multiple low-level radar stations add little long range intelligence compared to a single high-level station, are they useful for better aiding interceptors?

hang on. you're telling me that they didnt test the range of their radar, ever? I mean it's not hard, you set one up and have a plane fly away in a straight line. That is the validated information that you easily could have. Fly it only in the area you have air superiority in, some test site somewhere.

I understand that the quality of information drops with distance, but that isn't modeled in HoI3 is it? Anyways, that does not mean that you can't do controlled tests to see how far the thing will go under best circumstances for instance.
 

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When you have fighters, do you get a bonus only in the square where the radar is located, or within the signal intercept range of the station? The former would make much more sense...
 

unmerged(25337)

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... okay as that 1 Radar is worthless in one place (I have 40 all around the coast and borders) ... I was building yesterday (January 1941) 99 pieces and put on 10 places 10x10 Radar ... now I see from calais and brest whole UK and from Memel to Mosocow :) and so on (Have Skilllevel 3 Radars at the moment) ...

THE ONLY THING WHICH SHOULD BE CHANGED is that Radar could only be build from the map interface to Level 2-10 !!! (Like Bunkers, Airports and Ports)

Why ? A radar is made in a factory then transported and mounted in the province where it will work. Its not same for a port or an airport.
(Construct AA in the same province ;) )
 

egslim

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hang on. you're telling me that they didnt test the range of their radar, ever? I mean it's not hard, you set one up and have a plane fly away in a straight line. That is the validated information that you easily could have. Fly it only in the area you have air superiority in, some test site somewhere.
Unfortunately, radar is far more complicated than that.

Range is determined by atmospheric conditions - and you don't know those conditions over enemy territory. It's also determined by the size of the target - a small fighter, a big bomber, or a whole airfleet. And there's no clear-cut signal. At the radar station you get a blip among all the noise, but the blip may or may not be part of that noise itself. It's very hard to tell.
The maximum range may be determined to be somewhere between 100 and 300 miles, and not knowing what's on the other side, you don't know what it is at any one time.

Second, the radar stations ingame represent more than just radar - they also represent listening posts and all other signal intelligence. That's why they detect ground units, since those are impossible to detect by a normal radar station.
But since the information such obtained is the product of a combination of signal quality, intelligence interpretation and pure luck, it's even harder to predict beforehand what the quality will be.

ETA:
Flying a plane away from the station is actually a very poor test, because it's much easier to follow a blip in the noise if you know where it is, than if you have to find it first.
 

Von Thoma

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Why ? A radar is made in a factory then transported and mounted in the province where it will work. Its not same for a port or an airport.
(Construct AA in the same province ;) )

Yes somehow you are right, with the FIRST LEVEL ... it is the basic construction , but as the behavior changes it isn't anymore this basic radar ... it is with bigger atennas, connected to each other, special buildings which needs each other and so on ...

so I see it now, that it isn't 10x Radar in one hex (if that would be the case, distance shouldn't have changed and 1x1 should see as far as 1x10 ....

so at the moment it isn't 10x1 but 1x10 (a lot more range and efficiency)
... so you couldn't put together 10x the same parts to get that 1x10 ... if you have to build them in serial, it simulates, that it is an upgrade and not the same parts 10 times....

with AA it is different, you just place 10x 8,8cm FLAK in that hex and not one "ultimate anti aircraft gun" :) ...

so a needed serial building in that hex, simulates that better in my opinion !
It is closer to 1x10 than 10x1 even it is the same result 10 .. I hope you could see,feel what I mean !
 

unmerged(84132)

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hang on. you're telling me that they didnt test the range of their radar, ever? I mean it's not hard, you set one up and have a plane fly away in a straight line. That is the validated information that you easily could have. Fly it only in the area you have air superiority in, some test site somewhere.

I understand that the quality of information drops with distance, but that isn't modeled in HoI3 is it? Anyways, that does not mean that you can't do controlled tests to see how far the thing will go under best circumstances for instance.

Detecting a fighter and hearing radio signals from a transmitting tower are two completely different things. With a large enough reciever, and sensitive enough equipment, you can "hear" radio signals from outer space. However, with that same equipment you probably would not be able to detect an airplane very far away. You would have to be relatively close to pick up something out of a radio headset or see a plane, but could be relatively far away and still pick up something being emitted by a network of towers.

Also, detecting objects that you want to know the location of, takes multiple radar systems. Whereas, all it takes is a reciever and a man listening to it to get information on troop movements (assuming you know their codes).

What you get out of your radar depends on how large of a signal you are emitting (for detections purposes), how large of a signal they are emitting (for listening purposes), the sensitivity of the equipment, and how many stations you have (triangulation). A ham radio is going to be much less effective than a radar tower, which in turn is going to be much less effective than a network of radar towers.

In Game:
Captial provinces and HQs are much easier to see than individual divisions for the simple fact that much more radio signals come from them (assuming that is what is being abstracted here).

With a lvl 10 radar in malta and level 1 decryption, I can "see" individual divisions moving around Italian Africa. With a lvl 10 radar in south eastern England (and lvl 1 decryption), I get intel from Protugal and Yugoslavia (low level intel). I get high level intel a few spaces in every direction from the radar site (essentially I can see out to the sea).

The high level intel range (for lvl 10 radar and lvl 1 decryption) is about 3 provinces over (basically you can actually see everything going on with this intel). Mid level intel is about double that range (seeing divisions move in the fog of war). Low level intel pretty much stretches across Europe (HQs, capitals, and other major cities/areas).

If you want to see the effect of your radar towers, switch to the intel map mode. This will give you a mix of intel from radar and LoS.

While this will not give you an exact max range, it gives you an estimate for various things. The reality of the matter is that the max range of a radar (for listening purposes) depends highly on the power of the the source you are trying to listen too. The amount of useful information you get out of the signal also depends on the encryption methods used by the people that are trasmitting the signal.

While they could give you this info in game (as all the number exist in the background), I kinda like the fact that it is a little fuzzy. Intellignece officers never knew exactly where every unit was (even within the range of their detection).

Personally, I would like some misinformation put into the radar system (instead of the see it or not as it currently stands). I seriously doubt radar towers could pinpoint radio signals halfway across Europe to some HQ in some province without spies that already knew where that HQ was. It would be nice if they put in some randomizer (based on many factors: range, radar level, effeciency, decryption, etc), that could put a HQ or unit a few provinces over from where it actual is. Although, that would probably add more calculations to slow down the game :p
 

egslim

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so a needed serial building in that hex, simulates that better in my opinion !
It is closer to 1x10 than 10x1 even it is the same result 10 .. I hope you could see,feel what I mean !
It depends.

I understand what you mean, that unlike lvl 10 AA a lvl 10 radar isn't just 10 lvl 1 radar installations next to each other.

But what matters is the component level. Is a lvl 10 station built from different components than a lvl 1? Much electronic equipment is improved my simply adding additional identical units to improve the signal.
 

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Yes somehow you are right, with the FIRST LEVEL ... it is the basic construction , but as the behavior changes it isn't anymore this basic radar ... it is with bigger atennas, connected to each other, special buildings which needs each other and so on ...

I think you are still not understanding the abstraction. A lvl 10 radar isnt 10 radars duct taped together, the term 'radar' in the production screen is an abstraction of the equipment.

with AA it is different, you just place 10x 8,8cm FLAK in that hex and not one "ultimate anti aircraft gun" :) ...

Hmmm I dont think lvl 10 AA is 10 88s ducted taped together either!

At lvl 10 you would imagine your at germanies Flak Tower stage, and that isnt 10 aa units in heap.
 

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with a 5 stack radar in köln and wilhemshaven i see troops in london and paris with only lvl 3 radartech

thought i'd mention it :D

10 isnt allways costeffective

as for bonuses to air combat i have no idea ...