Racism and racial violence

[out]

From the Zionism thread:

Including Zionism does mean you'd have to include its causes too, i.e. pogroms and anti-semitism, which P'dox will never do.

The question of Zionism aside, I think there's a big missed opportunity to not deal with racial conflicts more directly in V2. After all, racism was (and still is) one of the main motivating factors in national and global politics.

Just as one proposal, I think every POP should have a racial relation attribute with every other race. For example, the Jewish capitalist POP in Vienna may have a relatively good relation with ethnic Austrians, whereas Jewish craftsman POP's relation may be much worse. (I'm just making up the examples, please don't quote me on this.)

When two POP's racial relation is very high, they may intermarry and eventually assimilate into one POP. Conversely, if the relation is too bad, racial violence events may be triggered.

This racial relation is per POP, but it can spread both within and across provinces. So when a pogrom happens in Poland, this will worsen the Jew-Polish relations across the world. This may, for example, affect the Jewish votes in the US.

Within a province, POP relations are also affected by a variety of other factors: governmental policy, socio-economic stratification, POP's consciousness, etc.

Just a thought. I'm sure there must be better refined ways of implementing this. But anyway, I think managing race relations should be an important aspect of Victorian government. This isn't just for the jews, but for many, many other countries and ethnicities, especially in Asia and Afrika.

 

[enf91]

I predict flame war. And while this would make the game more realistic, it's probably too controversial. Paradox got in trouble for including separate Chinese states in HoI 3; this would piss damn near everyone off. I'm not saying where I stand, partly because I'm not sure myself.

 

[unmerged(58901)]

I admire your bravery for posting this! I'm a Jew and don't see anything overly controversial about this, although I see how it could quickly be turned into a flame war. Could this be a mod on a different forum, maybe?

 

[Vacceo]

PAradox has stated that there will be flavour events. I see nothing wrong in events such as the KKK doing nasty stuff after the American Civil War if a pop is still pro-slavery or conditions like that.

It´s nasty, indeed; but it did happen.

 

[Emperor Walter]

I admire your bravery for posting this! I'm a Jew and don't see anything overly controversial about this, although I see how it could quickly be turned into a flame war.

The contreversy is that if you included this, inevietably the player would have to do things like station troops to control the violence, but if they didn't, the player would effectively be encouraging ethnic cleansing. This will simply lead Paradox down the road of 1000 controverises. But basically, they don't include it for the same reason as in HOI2 they didn't include the Holocaust. Sure it would be more realistic, but simply too controversial.

 

[Tormodius]

You already got the minority questions in the Vicky1. It wasn't too controversial. It affected voters in a way,and changes in your society could lead it to become equal men. Not sure how it worked exactly but it had something to do with POPs. I remember that some POPs could not be promoted or become soldiers, because they were not "accepted" so they were stuck in their jobs. With new automatic promotion now, i suppose that will happen as well... somewhat the same way just you dont have to actively care about it? If you wanna try to play a racist leader in the game, change the law or party etc, make it happen so they dont recieve any rights? i think it could be possible that with Vicky2 as well.

 

[The BadgerUK]

This racial relation is per POP, but it can spread both within and across provinces. So when a pogrom happens in Poland, this will worsen the Jew-Polish relations across the world. This may, for example, affect the Jewish votes in the US.

I don't play P'dox games to start or have happen pograms. I wouldn't want this or pretty much anything in OP's post implimented. The real world and the game world are thankfully two different places.

Finally i don't see flame war i see a 'Thread Locked'

 

[Weijun]

From the Zionism thread:



The question of Zionism aside, I think there's a big missed opportunity to not deal with racial conflicts more directly in V2. After all, racism was (and still is) one of the main motivating factors in national and global politics.

Just as one proposal, I think every POP should have a racial relation attribute with every other race. For example, the Jewish capitalist POP in Vienna may have a relatively good relation with ethnic Austrians, whereas Jewish craftsman POP's relation may be much worse. (I'm just making up the examples, please don't quote me on this.)

When two POP's racial relation is very high, they may intermarry and eventually assimilate into one POP. Conversely, if the relation is too bad, racial violence events may be triggered.

This racial relation is per POP, but it can spread both within and across provinces. So when a pogrom happens in Poland, this will worsen the Jew-Polish relations across the world. This may, for example, affect the Jewish votes in the US.

Within a province, POP relations are also affected by a variety of other factors: governmental policy, socio-economic stratification, POP's consciousness, etc.

Just a thought. I'm sure there must be better refined ways of implementing this. But anyway, I think managing race relations should be an important aspect of Victorian government. This isn't just for the jews, but for many, many other countries and ethnicities, especially in Asia and Afrika.

Not sure how you are defining race here, but you seem to be using it in a 19th century sense, which was closer to the contemporary term, "nation," e.g. the English race.

Victoria I had a minorities policy, which did affect assimilation, I believe. Could there be events and militancy regarding non-accepted culture, wrong-religion minorities, especially when the minorities policy is residence ("The are cultural aliens!")? Very likely. If not, this should be relatively easy to mod. Should race, independent of culture, be a factor? That would seem to introduce much complexity, with little payoff and much controversy.

Over at the Magna Mundi forum, we were tossing around the idea of adding a third tier to culture groups, so there would be a finer gradation of foreignness. If you had Culture Group: Sub-Culture Group: Culture, then Bretons would not be as culturally alien as Maghrebs in France, for example.

 

[elboludox]

The thing in Vicky I was with full citizenship ALL of your POPs belonged to your primary "race". With limited citizenship they held to their original "race", but could be upgraded. With residence they couldn't be upgraded and retained their "race".

 

[Sovereign]

I think Vicky 2 is gonna be a damn fine game without this stuff. Maybe you could make a mod for it.

Personally I preffer Vicky 2 the game, not Vicky 2 the history simulator. Someone once said "you don't have to be a racist to love Victoria, but it helps", well let's not help it further.

Anyway as a non-European myself I love (or hope to love) the way I can turn "unciv" countries into superpowers. That's enough for me. No more racism please.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Flames ohoy!!

Even if racism clearly existed, I think Paradox know better than selling a racist game.

 

[King]

This proposal is stupid for two reasons.

Firstly it is totally imprartical to store a cultural relation value for every POP in the game, for evet culture in the game and then update it. It would make the game slow to a crawl.

Secondly your example is down right stupid because a Jewish Capitalist in Vienna would be ethnically Austrian.

In future could we please be able to make the distinction between religion and nationality.