Race

[Bradley Hutson]

Race is a rather sensitive topic, but it was very important in the Victoria 3 timeframe and thus should be well-represented. What are your thoughts on how it should be represented in the game? To avoid some confusion, I'll give a couple of definitions for race:

• A socially significant group of people who are defined by a shared phenotype (physical features)
• A group of people who are believed to be biologically distinct from other groups of people

The first definition will probably work most of the time, but the second may be necessary to represent racial groups that do not look different from each other (like Germans and Poles being considered by the Nazis to belong to different races despite looking virtually identical).

 

[RandyDeSantis]

I think should exist some kind of mechanic about race and culture in the game. Im just giving an opinion, dont take it seriously.

 

[alanschu]

The timeline includes some serious conflicts with respect to the United States so it'd likely have to exist in some capacity. I believe Brazil was still an active slave trading state at the start of the game as well, and the rapid colonization of Africa saw inconsistent rules applied to whether or not slavery (often technically illegal) was practically restricted.

Abolition movements had definitely become wide spread and it'd be interesting to see if maybe with consciousness or some other aspect if there were specific interest groups that would build up and make it a balancing act to maneuver if you insisted on remaining a slave state.

 

[dragonluke]

I think that's what heritage traits represent

 

[cosmeIII]

Is it really that important to what the game is trying to represent? I think cultural 'groups' is more than enough representation for this issue.

 

[Lord Lambert]

Here's what we learned from Leana's post:

In places like the US, discrimination is on a racial basis. This is based on your country's laws and can be changed. There are no culture groups, but cultures have traits like Heritage traits and Linguistic traits, and your laws will look at how alike or different those are to your main culture. So someone from England will be less discriminated against in American society. Someone from a different part of Europe will face some more discrimination than the Englishman but not too much. Someone from Africa or Asia will face a lot of discrimination.

 

[Bradley Hutson]

Here's what we learned from Leana's post:

This seems alright I suppose

 

[Vernichtere]

The pops will have three parameters: heritage, language and religion. The whole thing then takes place between these parameters. Race is then more or less simulated under heritage. Introducing appearance as an additional parameter would make blending processes even more complicated. As it is, I assume that inheritance will only be able to be assimilated very slowly.

 

[Bradley Hutson]

Introducing appearance as an additional parameter would make blending processes even more complicated.

Yeah that's true, although it seems that appearance and heritage could be connected? Perhaps heritage determines appearance? Appearance already sort of exists anyways in the form of pop portraits.

Also, would it be reasonable for some pops to have some sort of mixed heritage? Now of course there would need to be some limitations. You wouldn't want to have 100 different mixed heritage types in a single province, as that would greatly complicate things.

 

[Vernichtere]

Yeah that's true, although it seems that appearance and heritage could be connected? Perhaps heritage determines appearance? Appearance already sort of exists anyways in the form of pop portraits.

Also, would it be reasonable for some pops to have some sort of mixed heritage? Now of course there would need to be some limitations. You wouldn't want to have 100 different mixed heritage types in a single province, as that would greatly complicate things.

Race and how to deal with it are completely covered. You just have fewer mixed types. But a black German is simulated with it. He has an African heritage, German language and some religion. I can live with that.

 

[Bradley Hutson]

Race and how to deal with it are completely covered. You just have fewer mixed types. But a black German is simulated with it. He has an African heritage, German language and some religion. I can live with that.

Ok, that sounds good

 

[Lucododosor]

Besides slavery, the game's timeframe saw the rise of eugenics theories. I don't know if they'll be represented apart from nazifascism, but I don't mind if the devs leave it aside when game releases in order to proper represent it some time in the future. It's a harsh topic to be represented in game anyway.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

What I am wondering is if there will be any lingering cultural stuff after laws have been changed. As I am sure we all know, what the laws say and reality can be quite different things in these matters.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Besides slavery, the game's timeframe saw the rise of eugenics theories. I don't know if they'll be represented apart from nazifascism, but I don't mind if the devs leave it aside when game releases in order to proper represent it some time in the future. It's a harsh topic to be represented in game anyway.

Well, it is pretty known in Sweden that eugenics was petty big mainstream science suported by social democrats and liberals with rasbiologskt institut, institute of racial biology. Actually quite interesting, it was the rise of Nazism that made them steer more towards genetics in 1935. And in 1958 it changed its name to the institute for medical genetics. All that skull meassuring and other shenanigans leading into genetics, sort of like how alchemy led into chemistry.

 

[Andrelvis]

Well, it is pretty known in Sweden that eugenics was petty big mainstream science suported by social democrats and liberals with rasbiologskt institut, institute of racial biology. Actually quite interesting, it was the rise of Nazism that made them steer more towards genetics in 1935. And in 1958 it changed its name to the institute for medical genetics. All that skull meassuring and other shenanigans leading into genetics, sort of like how alchemy led into chemistry.

Genetics had already been discovered well before then, in the 19th century by the Austrian/Moravian Gregor Mendel.

It was rather the other way around than what you say, the discovery of genetics and evolution led to pseudoscientific ideas like eugenics becoming more popular, as the public misunderstood the new discoveries.

That is to say, instead of alchemy/chemistry, a more appropriate comparison would be medicine and homeopathy. As in the 18th century misunderstandings about medicine led to the creation of the pseudoscience of homeopathy.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Genetics had already been discovered well before then, in the 19th century by the Austrian/Moravian Gregor Mendel.

It was rather the other way around than what you say, the discovery of genetics and evolution led to pseudoscientific ideas like eugenics becoming more popular, as the public misunderstood the new discoveries.

That is to say, instead of alchemy/chemistry, a more appropriate comparison would be medicine and homeopathy. As in the 18th century misunderstandings about medicine led to the creation of the pseudoscience of homeopathy.

Yeah you are right, the comparison is a little weak. Mendel was of course already known. It's like eugenics becoming popular made it easier to estabish and find funding for racial biology and it slowly morphing back into genetics in this case.

Eugenics though and especially forced sterilization would be a thing in Sweden well beyond 1936, so you don't need fascism to support it to some degree. When forced sterilization laws came into effect in Sweden it was only opposed by the comunist party and the catholic church (not exactly a powerhouse in swedish politics).

I could understand them not wanting to go that way, but eugenics being something all kinds of interest groups could start to support late game.

 

[Skales]

it was only opposed by the comunist party and the catholic church

Ah yes, the classic alliance.

 

[Vernichtere]

Eugenics has been used a little to discriminate against certain minorities, or to plead for killing the disabled. But I don't see any kind of separate mechanics for the game here. For example, the US will not necessarily welcome Asians as immigrants. The argument with eugenics is covered by this type of discrimination. After all, there were no experiments that bred superhumans en masse

 

[Zavaleta]

Race was an important mode of social/cultural distinction during the time period. It was also a complete invention and definitions of "race" differed across the world and throughout time. It should be simulated as a mode of cultural marginalization for Pops on a country by country basis. There should not be predefined "racial" groups.

 

[Vernichtere]

Race was an important mode of social/cultural distinction during the time period. It was also a complete invention and definitions of "race" differed across the world and throughout time. It should be simulated as a mode of cultural marginalization for Pops on a country by country basis. There should not be predefined "racial" groups.

It will not. The developers have already commented on this. Ethnicity, race or culture are inherited and are then specified by language and religion. Depending on the politics and the country, there is then discrimination or assimilation more quickly. That is completely sufficient.