Quill18 vid: "War is looking good"

[podcat]

If you threw the same amount of money to developing an optimal HOI AI that the people have thrown at developing a self driving car, you could do it. But like self driving cars, it would take a decade and more money than Paradox will make in a 100 years.

We would still need to ship along a computer just to run the AI because not only does the AI have to be good, it also has to be very fast because HOI isnt a turn based game.

[for example, the AI in Command & Conquer 3 is made exactly the way I like it. At brutal, it just plays way better than me, without any artificial bonuses. So I switch it a notch lower. But C&C isn't a grand strategy game dealing with WW2, sadly.]

from some quick googling turns out the C&C 3 ai cheats a lot actually Seems to see everything and also gets economy boosts. In a game about quick reactions and multitasking tons of units AI also gets an inherent advantage vs players because they can click infinitely fast. Try HOI4 on max speed with no pausing and see how well you can give manual orders while at war vs AI...

 

[amalric de g.]

We would still need to ship along a computer just to run the AI because not only does the AI have to be good, it also has to be very fast because HOI isnt a turn based game.



from some quick googling turns out the C&C 3 ai cheats a lot actually Seems to see everything and also gets economy boosts. In a game about quick reactions and multitasking tons of units AI also gets an inherent advantage vs players because they can click infinitely fast. Try HOI4 on max speed with no pausing and see how well you can give manual orders while at war vs AI...

Thats so true, the AI in Starcraft does the same cheating, to be competitive with the player. Total War is the same mess. A really adaptive and smart AI is in our time only a dream.

 

[Beagá]

As a matter of fact, I do. I do want an AI that can kick my ass with a very heavy boot. And when it does, and I can find no way of beating it, I'll lower the difficulty setting. I'll finally have a game that is actually challenging.

Because right now, there's no challenge. AIs in most of current games are hopeless on equal terms, and the bonuses they receive on higher difficulties aren't really doing their job. Either you can compensate for them without effort, once you learn a few simple tricks, or they are so great that you just can't make up for them at all.

[for example, the AI in Command & Conquer 3 is made exactly the way I like it. At brutal, it just plays way better than me, without any artificial bonuses. So I switch it a notch lower. But C&C isn't a grand strategy game dealing with WW2, sadly.]
.

I don´t know if you noticed but you totally made a non sequitur.

"C&C AI is not very good, I have to reduce the level however because it´s tough and I lose otherwise. Despite it recieving no bonuses at all."

Seriously?

Current AI of games that are about simple but repetitive actions beat humans easily nowadays. If that makes AI "good" is another question. If it´s about doing X, and it makes X better, then well, it´s good AI.

 

[BrotherArdis]

from some quick googling turns out the C&C 3 ai cheats a lot actually

Huh? Oh dear... Didn't know that. It never occurred to me to check; I always assumed it just had good build orders and made best use of its micromanagement ability.

Try HOI4 on max speed with no pausing and see how well you can give manual orders while at war vs AI...

Yes, I'd very much like to try HoI 4 out, even at max speed and with no pauses.

C&C AI is not very good

Unless I made some linguistic error I can't find, I said precisely the opposite - the AI is good; at the highest difficulty it plays better than me. So I play at one level lower to get a difficult but beatable game.

 

[GhengisKhan]

There's not a RTS ai that can beat a human consistently that doesn't cheat. Command and Conquer didn't even have 1/2 the AI that a modern Starcraft game has. These games are also nowhere near as complex as HOI. It will be years before we can have an AI that can beat a human and be run on a PC with a game of this complexity. For the people that are going to mention Big Blue and the Chess AI Chess is an exponentially simpler game that HOI.

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

The "AI can't outsmart the human" issue is why I'm loooking forward to playing HoI4 with some friends. I also play EU4 with friends and it's way more fun having to do proper diplomacy where you actually discuss what you want, what you don't want, where you threat or offer. All via chat of course. Warfare is also better because you don't know what they plan, what they plot against you etc.

In Hoi4 thanks due to the way different military system that'll be even better. Will they breakthrough? Are they luring me into a trap? Will X country join my faction or are they going for my enemies faction? I prefer multiplayer over singleplayer, simply so that there's tougher fights, be they war, diplomacy or trade domination (EU).

 

[terminalstatus]

Wish I could see more of the game play!

 

[Deathmachinept]

Thats so true, the AI in Starcraft does the same cheating, to be competitive with the player. Total War is the same mess. A really adaptive and smart AI is in our time only a dream.

I still have many doubts if a fake AI .. as in programming every or the majority of her actions and reactions to the player is not preferable or will not result in a more difficult opponent, sometimes in some games there are so very specific actions that a behavior AI can't cope or will waste so much resources to consider them compared to just putting a single line of code prohibiting her to not do that action, not doing this makes usually makes her predictable and easy to exploit in those instances.

Sure, but isn't a fake AI much more predictable? well most games that used a fake AI are very predictable but I think this failure results from only start to work on the AI as an "afterthought" when you already advance in production... I think for a good "AI" you need to start by making a game around the AI and not the player.. this means mechanics and gameplay would be first put in her context. This would still mean the player would be the final consideration but everything would be depended on the AI.

As you can see even on HoI 4 the main consideration is accessibility, a better a more polish experience for the player and more immersion, A.I. is only mention on helping the player not by using the actual game mechanics and working against the player and it seems in HoI 4 A.I. was never the factor that rules them all, there hasn't been even a DD by the stage about A.I. nor Is A.I. ever mention on the 1st DD as a concrete and focus objective and that is worries cuz it wasn't that great on previous titles. I also find increasing the difficulty just by giving a bonus to A.I. battles cheap and insulting

Maybe the answer is not only starting with the AI in first place but also using a hybrid A.I system with behavior and specific programmed actions but being the latter more prevalent to not only save performance but because it's also easier to adapt to new gameplay and new mechanics.

I could be wrong maybe paradox as a surprise down her sleeve but honestly if they were proud and this was a major focus it would have already been mention.


The best or most challenging A.I. I have encounter was in Age of Empire 2.
http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence

The AI was already a very good match in moderate difficulty(it actually kick my ass a few times) and it was efficient at playing the game maybe because it was scripted to just do what it matter to win but it work in providing a very good challenge, only getting artificial bonus on the last difficulty.

 

[BrXD]

Great video waiting for Arumba!!!

 

[Hayro]

heh saw Fevzi Çakmak as Leader of Fascist Turkey
could be nice if Nihal Atsız was in charge since he and Alp Arslan Türkeş was the Opposition to Turkish Gov during ww2

 

[Beagá]

The "AI can't outsmart the human" issue is why I'm loooking forward to playing HoI4 with some friends. I also play EU4 with friends and it's way more fun having to do proper diplomacy where you actually discuss what you want, what you don't want, where you threat or offer. All via chat of course. Warfare is also better because you don't know what they plan, what they plot against you etc.

In Hoi4 thanks due to the way different military system that'll be even better. Will they breakthrough? Are they luring me into a trap? Will X country join my faction or are they going for my enemies faction? I prefer multiplayer over singleplayer, simply so that there's tougher fights, be they war, diplomacy or trade domination (EU).

It´s fun because you are talking to people and win versus people. It´s obviously more rewarding than beating a computer, because people are unpredictable, and talking to one would feel, weird. Playing versus AI in the likes of, say, EU4 is a math game. Specially if you want world conquest.

There is good reason why the most played games are either pure PVP or players versus AI like TF2 Menn versus Machine.

 

[Will Steel]

God, I just saw the video. And for the first time since September 03 2013 I have felt the same huge, huge hype fire burning inside me, the same extreme excitement for an upcoming game (except I hold the same feeling for Kingdom Come - Deliverance). Just looking at it makes me wanna play.

Paradox, y u no take my cash and gimme da game already?

 

[Gunnarr]

I am not that excited, it looks like the actual military is more of watch it happen, not make it happen. I think I will have to stick to HOI3

 

[joe9594]

Try HOI4 on max speed with no pausing and see how well you can give manual orders while at war vs AI...

Sure just send me a steam copy.

 

[Spartanlemur]

That day/night cycle line is really annoying. I hope they change it to something softer and more gradual before release.

 

[Old Ladies]

People are forgetting that you could let the AI control your armies in HOI3. I found it most fun when I let the AI control my armies in HOI3 except for a few certain units like paratroopers and spearhead units. This just takes what you already could do in HOI3 and makes it 100 times better.

Letting the AI control your armies is more realistic and more challenging. Controlling all your armies made facing the AI far too easy. So having AI controlled armies vs AI controlled armies means the better army with the better plan should win.

As far as the video goes Quill did a pretty poor job and he didn't even execute 1/2 his battleplans so that is why the Italian army was doing so poorly.

And to those who are complaining about this you do know you don't have to use it just like it HOI3 you didn't have to use theater AI control.

 

[Jakalak]

I am not that excited, it looks like the actual military is more of watch it happen, not make it happen. I think I will have to stick to HOI3

I want to agree, but we also need to remember that we've been told the player can, to a certain extent, manually control their armies - simply because neither Quill nor Northernlion has done so means that we haven't really gotten a clear picture of how combat works, yet.

Again, as safe-keeper said, I think a dev video would be really useful, as they're more aware of how it works, have more time to plan things out intricately, etc.

 

[Taciturn Scot]

Yeah, this bugs me, too. I love the battleplan feature as a simple "I don't want to micro the frontline" feature, something that makes it easier for new people or people who don't want to focus on that to wage a war. Perhaps not that effectively, since you let the AI handle it and the player might make smarter decisions than the AI.

But it bugs me that units are more effecient when fighting in a battleplan. It bugs me a lot. I don't want to suffer a disadvantage because I choose to focus on the war waging part of the game and micro that. :I

I'm certainly not new to the HOI franchise. I've been playing HOI 1 since it was released and by the time we reached HOI 3, the ONLY way I could get any challenge or pleasure out of playing it was by having the AI carry out my operational/strategic orders. It is just too easy for me to destroy the AI on the highest difficulty settings when I was micro-ing every division in HOI2. There's just NO CONTEST whatsoever because the game is just too complex for any AI to manage all its systems effectively so as to present a challenge to anyone but a complete newbie.

This battle-planner is the only thing that is enticing me with HOI4. Without it, I'd just be beating up babies after I'd grown comfortable with the new system and that's usually one run-through with a game I'm familiar with. And it makes sense that the game rewards you for preparation so why should it 'bug' you a lot? You're not going to be at any disadvantage because you won't need those bonuses to give you the edge over the AI if you're going to handle it yourself Further, it means that I won't be doomed to play countries like Albania to get a challenge. I can play Germany, the UK or the USSR and have fun doing so for a long time to come. If I am going to play a game based around WW2, I WANT to be able to play as the majors. My personal favourite is Italy