Quill18- HoI4 impressions

[Oedipus101]

I think the penalty for not using BP is foolish. Historically, the best planners were the ones who were able to respond to changes the circumstances well, rather than stay to one plan even as it proved to be flawed. People didn't win battles because they happened to be marked on the map as part of a plan.

Further, if I want to use BP to actually make a group go through a specific attack path, either i need to make lots and lots of small groups so I can manage them all ( since otherwise the AI will control them all and screw up attacks as it always does), getting a huge number of clicks to be needed, or I need to draw lots of fronts, also racking up tons of clocks. Further the stream shows that Germany starts with five commanders. Five. I can only assume you'll get a lot more but than the new painting system encourages them to limit the amount of generals

 

[PlacidDragon]

I think the penalty for not using BP is foolish. Historically, the best planners were the ones who were able to respond to changes the circumstances well, rather than stay to one plan even as it proved to be flawed. People didn't win battles because they happened to be marked on the map as part of a plan.

To quote Helmuth von Moltke ; "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy".

 

[Centurion1973]

I think the penalty for not using BP is foolish. Historically, the best planners were the ones who were able to respond to changes the circumstances well, rather than stay to one plan even as it proved to be flawed. People didn't win battles because they happened to be marked on the map as part of a plan.

Further, if I want to use BP to actually make a group go through a specific attack path, either i need to make lots and lots of small groups so I can manage them all ( since otherwise the AI will control them all and screw up attacks as it always does), getting a huge number of clicks to be needed, or I need to draw lots of fronts, also racking up tons of clocks. Further the stream shows that Germany starts with five commanders. Five. I can only assume you'll get a lot more but than the new painting system encourages them to limit the amount of generals

Game will be moddable, so if you want, you can remove that penalty and control all units that you want manually.

As for AI, I dont expect miracles, but if its better than HoI3 AI, I would be willing to control my infantry without every step being dictated by my battleplan - at least in SP. If needed, I would still be able to redirect those unit if needed.

I expect many more commanders to be present, when the game is released + its absurdly easy to add them as a mod.

 

[Stenner]

Game will be moddable, so if you want, you can remove that penalty and control all units that you want manually.

As for AI, I dont expect miracles, but if its better than HoI3 AI, I would be willing to control my infantry without every step being dictated by my battleplan - at least in SP. If needed, I would still be able to redirect those unit if needed.

I expect many more commanders to be present, when the game is released + its absurdly easy to add them as a mod.

We weren't told if there is even a penalty to not having a bp anymore, the version that was in we were told was scrapped along with it's following version, also I didn't hear anything in today's stream about penalties.

Also, concerning the ability to either reset groups or be limited to 5 commanders, the zoom-out sorting style still gives me hope for quick reorganizations. But I can see where the 5 army groups is kind of a pain, which hasn't been "entirely" confirmed. Podcat just went to choose a commander and said "well there's 5", unless this has been written somewhere?

Even with 5 that's still 50 divisions and if it hasn't changed from previous versions you can overstack your army. So poland could be 1 army group with 1 major plan.

 

[Oedipus101]

There's still a penalty, they mentioned it.

I think it might be better for the penalty (which is a lack of a bonus), to be a sliding scale where only large alterations will make a big dent in your bonus.

 

[jju_57]

It gave you useful bonuses, it kept your units organized, it allowed you to utilize a large number of pre-defined force groupings. Is that enough?

Corps bonus was very lacking and the AI never got the bonus so it was all a player only benefit when we needed none. It actually didn't keep your forces organized as you still had to move the divisions yourself. It never worked well with AI control and was a complete waste on manual control.

Now to clarify the OOB was actually two things in HOI3. On the map is was HQ units that many of us hated. The AI used HQ units as speed bumps against your advance to force the combat delay. And off map it took a DLC to give the OOB any real functionality. In the end it was just one more thing a human could use and the Ai couldn't.

 

[Taciturn Scot]

I think the penalty for not using BP is foolish. Historically, the best planners were the ones who were able to respond to changes the circumstances well, rather than stay to one plan even as it proved to be flawed. People didn't win battles because they happened to be marked on the map as part of a plan.

Further, if I want to use BP to actually make a group go through a specific attack path, either i need to make lots and lots of small groups so I can manage them all ( since otherwise the AI will control them all and screw up attacks as it always does), getting a huge number of clicks to be needed, or I need to draw lots of fronts, also racking up tons of clocks. Further the stream shows that Germany starts with five commanders. Five. I can only assume you'll get a lot more but than the new painting system encourages them to limit the amount of generals

You know that they did plan in WW2. Case Blue, Yellow and White, Barbarossa, Bagration, Uranus, etc, etc, etc. It wasn't all done on the fly Of course they adapted plans and you get to do this in HOI4 too.

Fall Gelb is a good example of a plan coming together, at least as far as the race to the channel. The subsequent Battle for France was not quite so successful because it was largely unplanned.

And Moltke wasn't really suggesting that it should be improvised either. Just remarking that it would be a given that the plan would need revising once contact was made.

I am personally THRILLED that we don't have to mess about with OBs anymore. I'd prefer it if there were an option for you guys who don't share my enthusiasm to manage this if you wanted but it's not my call to make.

 

[Oedipus101]

You know that they did plan in WW2. Case Blue, Yellow and White, Barbarossa, Bagration, Uranus, etc, etc, etc. It wasn't all done on the fly Of course they adapted plans and you get to do this in HOI4 too.

Fall Gelb is a good example of a plan coming together, at least as far as the race to the channel. The subsequent Battle for France was not quite so successful because it was largely unplanned.

And Moltke wasn't really suggesting that it should be improvised either. Just remarking that it would be a given that the plan would need revising once contact was made.

I am personally THRILLED that we don't have to mess about with OBs anymore. I'd prefer it if there were an option for you guys who don't share my enthusiasm to manage this if you wanted but it's not my call to make.

Sure, but I simply meant that they would have never have kept to a plan against their best judgement because the troops would fight worse. I think to some extent the penalty exists more because the devs want people to use their new BP system than because it makes sense historically or in gameplay terms. It's not that I think the game isn't turning out well, or that the BP system is entirely ill-conceived; but that it's strange to penalize the player for what will probably tend to amount to fixing their own and the AI's mistakes. Perhaps instead of a flat malus, they should make it so diversions will destabilize the supply situation.

By the way, the Kiev encirclement wouldn't have happened if Hitler had not changed plans and sent panzer divisions southward

 

[Holy.Death]

Aren't we supposed to change plans when they are no longer feasible? Perhaps instead of having a penalty make it so that without battle-planning you won't get a bonus, meaning there would still be an incentive to make battle plans without penalizing change of plans? Loss of a bouns should be a penalty enough...

If a player hates organizing and commanding military units in a game about operational and strategic levels of WW2... well, maybe they should be playing Close Combat or Warcraft instead.

Problem was not organizing and commanding military units. Problem was how it has been implemented in HoI3.

 

[fabius]

Also, concerning the ability to either reset groups or be limited to 5 commanders, the zoom-out sorting style still gives me hope for quick reorganizations. But I can see where the 5 army groups is kind of a pain, which hasn't been "entirely" confirmed. Podcat just went to choose a commander and said "well there's 5", unless this has been written somewhere?

Even with 5 that's still 50 divisions and if it hasn't changed from previous versions you can overstack your army. So poland could be 1 army group with 1 major plan.

Whatttttt... my heart just sank with hearing that there may be a limit to 5 groups. That'd be absurd and truly dumbed down.

 

[safe-keeper]

I think the penalty for not using BP is foolish. Historically, the best planners were the ones who were able to respond to changes the circumstances well, rather than stay to one plan even as it proved to be flawed. People didn't win battles because they happened to be marked on the map as part of a plan.

Who says you can't make changes to the plan? As far as I know, all the penalty applies to is starting the operation prematurely. I've read nothing about changes.

 

[misterbean]

Whatttttt... my heart just sank with hearing that there may be a limit to 5 groups. That'd be absurd and truly dumbed down.

As I understood Podcat, he was simply remarking on the fact that in 1936, Germany starts with 5 generals. Nobody said anything about a hard limit of 5 groups.

 

[fabius]

As I understood Podcat, he was simply remarking on the fact that in 1936, Germany starts with 5 generals. Nobody said anything about a hard limit of 5 groups.

Ah, phew... thank you. That makes sense. When he was selecting a general there was a create new commander tab for 135 points.

Still, I wonder how the tabs on the bottom of the screen will work, like will they be the last x number selected.

 

[Modestus]

Hmm missed the first video where there was a breakdown so now I have watched the two again and while I still don’t quite get the battle planner the management of your factories, the building and the training of your armies all looks extremely interesting.

I suspect for the first time there will be a tangible connection between what happens on the battlefield and what happens back home, if your factories get bombed your replacements will run out if you lose too many tanks not only will your divisions be depleted your going to put pressure on your industry to replace them.

Overall looking good except how do you show Counters doing press-ups?

 

[Beagá]

I think you misunderstand. I have played games with Germany where I quite literally have every single division, with the correct general in the correct location under the correct corps (who also has the right general) and so on. I mean, the Germans, after France, did such a massive reorganisation, that they changed about 20 to 30 divisions into mot, arm, mtn, light infantry,...
I could list them, but that might take us a little too far off-course.

edited to add: and I was unhappy with the removal of the OOB until I realised we didn't have it in HOI 2 either, and it was still a great game.

But the thing is that HOI 2 only worked because of low province count.

It isn´t only about combat itself but garrisoning and air combat. If combat is apparently becoming too attack-move, what will be of air combat then? You will be forced to look bureaucratic end of week loss reports...

The game is being more and more focused on complexity without interactivity while not exactly having more depth. The game should decide if it wants to be a wargame or grand strategy game.

 

[unmerged(83175)]

Hmm missed the first video where there was a breakdown so now I have watched the two again and while I still don’t quite get the battle planner the management of your factories, the building and the training of your armies all looks extremely interesting.

I suspect for the first time there will be a tangible connection between what happens on the battlefield and what happens back home, if your factories get bombed your replacements will run out if you lose too many tanks not only will your divisions be depleted your going to put pressure on your industry to replace them.

Overall looking good except how do you show Counters doing press-ups?

Yes, Overall the game mechanics seem imo very solid. The training, production lines and etc... although if I can't get rid of the 3d models, I atleast hope/expect that you can turn of the shadows. I found the soldiers shadow going from left to right very distracting and certainly if there are 15+ 3D soldiers on your screen.

 

[Modestus]

Yes, Overall the game mechanics seem imo very solid. The training, production lines and etc... although if I can't get rid of the 3d models, I atleast hope/expect that you can turn of the shadows. I found the soldiers shadow going from left to right very distracting and certainly if there are 15+ 3D soldiers on your screen.

Yes the models are a problem but it seems likely that now we will be able to create 3D counters and 3D icons.

 

[podcat]

edited: meant to add- the new system of controlling the width of the group looked a good addition, and the arrows auto insert for aesthetics is more than fine!

arrows arent aesthetics, they control axis of advance and such so are pretty important. What I said in the stream was that the system for modifying them wasnt stable enough for pdxcon so I couldnt show that yet (also the fact that its currently indicated by a pink cat icon)

Podcat just went to choose a commander and said "well there's 5", unless this has been written somewhere?

I think I meant I needed someone able to handle 5 divisions when looking through the list of generals we have more than 5.

Overall looking good except how do you show Counters doing press-ups?

I am slightly disappointed that you haven't given it a try :/

 

[everburn]

Overall talking, i think they are trying to make hearts of iron, less complex and way more understable to everybody. Less click you need to perform the same action in hoi4. Everybody can agree that there is a huge difference between make 18clicks for an action, meanwhile doing the same with 3. But there is people who loves to make 18clicks, because they know that if they do that, they are going to be stronger than the one who don't want to make 18 clicks and can be able to do 3, because he is too lazy, or he simply didn't understand how to make the 18clicks.

I mean i can see people here complaing about the OOB, to much difficult to understand. But the truth it's that the OOB in hoi3, was simply everthing, placing the correct general, with the correct bonus, with the correct experience, with the correct type of troops, would have you allowed to crush and breach inside the maginot line. The correct paradrop, in the correct province, with the correct time of bombing, with the correct air coverage, would you have allowed to take way easier the same province. And in correct you need to understand that i mean not overplacing resources or divivision, because if you have done, you will have less somewhere else.

Stopping the reinforcement form the back, stopping the flow of supply, destroy airbases, bombing factories, it's a question of choices, and the best one that you pick up it's the one that you are going to help.

If you destroy airbases, the airplanes can't repair, and they are going to run out of organization. Boming factories ok you are going to slow down their production, but not their repair rate. Meanwhile you are going to loose organization meanwhile you bomb factories. Destroy supplies that reach the front could help. But not really that much if you have everywhere lvl 10 province. And so on.

And this is an alpha, so it's normally, but i don't see the same depth, in this system. And this it's the people who complains it's telling. We see arrow simulator, we see eu4, but we don't see hoi3 ( or hoi?).

I think they are making a step back from hoi3. that's all, they have gone simply to micro for people to understand the game. I really love hoi3. But the question is like to find out the balance between micro and macro.
And i think that now the game ( hoi4) it's a little to macro. I mean the trade part wasn't finished, so ok fine. But if i have a surplus of resouces, they are going to be wasted. I can give to somebody for what???? I would rather see a sytem where you can stockypile that type of resouces , ( like hoi3) regardless the type. I mean i have access to 60 steel daily, but if i need 62?, meanwhile there was a time that i was in needing only of 8? how can i spend the other 52? it's possible that is only going to be wasted?

I can understand the part that " we don't want the IA to play the game, because otherwise it's going to be the game that is going to be played from himself and not from the player". But i don't really understand how making that one click away from every player, can make the difference from a good player towards a bad. I mean you go in research part, was complex, everthing was in timing, compared with what you were researching. You were producing tanks, you were researching tanks faster. But if you have gone up to date, you could have gone without problem.

And for what i saw i really odn't understand how can a good player can make the difference towards a bad player. Or at least a player who wants to make 100 clicks, towards to a player that wants only to do 3.

 

[Holy.Death]

Yes, Overall the game mechanics seem imo very solid. The training, production lines and etc... although if I can't get rid of the 3d models, I atleast hope/expect that you can turn of the shadows. I found the soldiers shadow going from left to right very distracting and certainly if there are 15+ 3D soldiers on your screen.

From what I saw you can disable day/night cycle.

And for what i saw i really odn't understand how can a good player can make the difference towards a bad player. Or at least a player who wants to make 100 clicks, towards to a player that wants only to do 3.

How come a player who wants to make 100 clicks is better than a player who wants to do 3 clicks? Since when is HoI about APM?