Quick improvements to Georgia

[Delurker]

This is going to be a bit of a drive-by set of requests because I’m a bit short of time. The patch has definitely improved Georgia, but there’s lots of small and easily fixable errors still:

Mtskheta is misspelled. Bishopric within it should also be Jvari, not Djavri. (in any case, could be Svetitskhoveli instead or in addition.) City should be Gori, not “Sioni”, which is the name of a church (Gori could also be a castle).

Egrisi strikes me as a bit anachronistic especially in the start dates after 1000 – should probably be called Odishi. City of Egrisi – replace with Poti probably, although Egrisi is maybe a little too small and Guria is a little too big so I’m not 100% sure that it’s within Egrisi’s borders in the game (it is in real life though.)

City of Klarjeti – there is no such city! Klarjeti should have bishopric of Ancha instead of Barony of Khertvisi, which I think is actually in Tao. EDIT: There should also be a bishopric of Khandzta from the 780s or so onwards.

Imeretia – probably should be called Imereti, in line with Kakheti. Also should be in the duchy of Abkhazia, not the duchy of Kartli. In an ideal world there’d be another province carved out of the territory south of Tiflis province – (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Kldekari) perhaps including Samshvilde and/or Tmogvi, and then the Duchy of Kartli could have three provinces too.

The church/mosque in Tiflis province shouldn’t be Svetitskhoveli, because that’s in Mtskheta! Should be called Sioni instead, at least when it’s Christian (it means Zion, so not very appropriate for a Mosque in any case.)

Guria – I’m not at all sure that Bukitsikhe is a real place. Perhaps someone else on the forums can suggest a better candidate for the capital.

County of Kakheti capital fort should probably be Khornabuji or something – at any rate it should be renamed to Zedazeni – “Zeda-Zaden” doesn’t exist.

Albaneti should probably be called Hereti, although I see why it’s called that.

Duchy of Tao should be renamed Duchy of Tao-Klarjeti

Please create county of Svaneti – it was quite significant in the game’s time period.(Castle/city = Seti; castle = Ushguli.)

Imereti (specifically, Kutaisi) should be the capital of the Kingdom of Georgia until it conquers Tbilisi (so in the 1066 and 1081 starts at least).

Please add another Seamless Robe of Jesus and give it to the Bagrationi’s. The robe is right in the centre of their coat of arms and it’s one of those things that low-key bugs me now every time I look at Georgia because of it.


There’s plenty more substantial that could be changed, but these are all (apart from the additional provinces) easy fixes that could be dealt with in the coming patch.

 

[klopkr]

Please add another Seamless Robe of Jesus and give it to the Bagrationi’s. The robe is right in the centre of their coat of arms and it’s one of those things that low-key bugs me now every time I look at Georgia because of it.

Can you tell me more about this? This sounds like a very cool artifact.

 

[Reavici]

I like the idea about adding one province between Klarjeti and Tbilisi. Historically there have existed several duchies in this territory, such as duchy of Akhaltsikhe, Akhalkalaki, Tmogvi and Kldekari.

Local ducal families in this area: Toreli, Jaqeli, Akhaltsikheli, Tmogveli, Bagvashi etc.

Also I am very disappointed that Svans are not represented at least as a separated county

 

[Delurker]

I like the idea about adding one province between Klarjeti and Tbilisi. Historically there have existed several duchies in this territory, such as duchy of Akhaltsikhe, Akhalkalaki, Tmogvi and Kldekari.

Local ducal families in this area: Toreli, Jaqeli, Akhaltsikheli, Tmogveli, Bagvashi etc.

Also I am very disappointed that Svans are not represented at least as a separated county

Yeah I agree - I'm not that fussed which specific province gets put in there, but it'd make sense given the political dynamics in the game's time period, since that general area repeatedly hosted powerful nobles who rebelled against the crown throughout the Georgian Golden Age and beyond (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liparitids).

And I'm also quite disappointed that there's no Svaneti - it's quite a noticeable omission. It's not the only province that I'd like added (far from it!) but if they had to add just one to Georgia, that would be the one.

Further quick changes: Ghelati in the Imereti file should be spelled Gelati, and shouldn't appear until 1106. Bagrati shouldn't appear until 1003, since it's literally named after the first King of a united Georgia, Bagrat III, who founded it.

Also, something I missed the first time, but Egrisi or whatever they call it should 100% have Chqondidi as its main temple. This would allow for good potential flavour, because then it could have Giorgi Choqondideli as its holder in the 1080s and he could then be made David the Builder's right hand man (and generally a very very important person in Georgian history.) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_of_Chqondidi).

Other temples: Shio-Mghvime for Mtskheta; Iqalto for Kakheti from 1100; Ruisi-Urbnisi in Mtskheta (maybe one day it might be possible to have an ecclesiastical council there in-game); Bolnisi as a temple in Kartli province (not a great fit - I'd like to see Tbilisi properly split off from Kvemo Kartli tbh, given its long history as an Emirate). Bedia in Abkhazia (also Zugdidi shouldn't be in Abkhazia, it should be in Egrisi.)

Kaspi should be a castle in Mtskheta.

Also Uplistsikhe should be a city in Mtskheta.

 

[Delurker]

Can you tell me more about this? This sounds like a very cool artifact.

Okay, so, Wikipedia is reasonably good on this, but basically...The Bagrationis, who were important rulers, then Kings, in Georgia from the 800s, made a big point of tracing their links to the Holy Land and legitimating their rule by using Christianity (something that made them entirely typical of Christian rulers in this period.) Traditionally they claimed to be descendants of the Biblical King David, hence the sling on their CoA (also why so many of their rulers were called David - I think they got up to twelve or something). One of the ways that they showed their right to rule was by having what they claimed was the Seamless Robe of Jesus, that he wore at the time of his crucifixion. It allegedly found its way up to Georgia and was placed in the treasury of Svetitskhoveli Cathedral in Mtskheta. For reference, Mtskheta is probably the holiest city in Georgia in this time period (it certainly is the holiest city in Kartli) and is the ancient seat of the Kings of Iberia (one of the two ancient predecessor states of Georgia - I'm simplifying a lot) and Svetiskhoveli is probably the holiest church in Mtskheta and dates back to Saint Nino, who first Christianised Georgia. Also, Mtskheta is just up the road from Armazi, which was the pre-Christian religious capital of Iberia, and where a giant statue of the god Armaz was, so it's a sort of symbol of Christianity supplanting paganism. So, long story short, it's a Big Deal.

EDIT TO ADD: There's already a Seamless Robe of Jesus programmed into the game, but it's programmed to always spawn in Trier, which also had one, which is why I would have thought it's quite an easy thing to fix.

 

[klopkr]

@Delurker Very cool. I hope they take some of your suggestions!

The fact that that artifact already exists in game, you could almost consider it a bug to be missing from the Bagratoionis.

 

[Delurker]

Another thing that could be added in not much time would be to add a unique Georgian retinue, the Monaspa. Since David the Builder set it up when he only owned most of Georgia (not even places further afield) I calculate it shouldn't cost more than 1000 retinue limit or it will be out of reach of a player who's achieved that. Therefore I'd suggest it should be 125 Heavy Cavalry and 50 Horse Archers, which puts it at 950 points. Georgia could then be excluded from the Byzantine cataphracts so it wouldn't have two cultural retinues.

Also, it wouldn't be that hard to add a decision like the Byzantine one with the Varangian Guard to create a permanent mercenary army of Kipchaks for Georgia, as David the Builder did. Combined, these two extra features would add some power to Georgia and make it a stronger opponent to the Seljuks etc, as well as adding some needed historical flavour.

EDIT TO ADD:
Also, a much quicker fix: Agsartan of Kakheti is missing an h - he should be called Aghsartan.

FURTHER EDIT TO ADD:
I had a detailed hunt and actually Bukistsikhe is an actual castle. Sorry for doubting the devs.

 

[Delurker]

I didn’t really want to come back to this thread particularly, but I bought The Old Gods in the Steam Sale and finally got a chance to play the 867 start date. I have to say, while there are some nit-picks I have with the basic set-up of Georgia in the later start dates, it’s broadly accurate as far as I can tell in terms of the overall political structure – the Dukes etc. are unnecessarily invented, since we have historical records for the real dukes and counts, but the politics are sound enough, so well done to the devs on that. Unfortunately, that’s not the case with 867 at all. Weirdly, some details are very accurate – Hereti (although not called Hereti) is miaphysite, for example, which is the sort of detail I wouldn’t necessarily expect to be right, not least because the province’s dominant religious denomination changed to Orthodoxy somewhere between 867 and 900. However, there are some really fundamental problems with the set-up in 867 that I feel I have to draw attention to. For a summary, basically just look at this image, showing the situation in 850, and compare to the situation in the game.

First of all, where is the Emirate of Tbilisi? It appears in the later start dates, but was very much in existence in 867. Its emirs had not long ago fought a war against the Abbasids in a failed attempt to gain a greater measure of independence. Its leader should be called Muhammed ibn Khalil of the Shaybanid dynasty (I think) and, naturally, it should occupy Tbilisi province, as it does in the later start dates. Potentially, it should be a vassal of the Abbasids, but that’s debateable for gameplay reasons I think. Its leaders should be called Emirs, not Marzobans or similar, and its religion should be Muslim and its ethnicity probably ought to be Arab at this point in history [sic].

Second, where’s the Kingdom of Hereti? In game terms it makes most sense to call it a Duchy rather than giving it a Kingdom title (and it was only technically a Kingdom from 893 anyway), but it was an independent realm in what is today the South-East of Kakheti province and western parts of Azerbaijan. Its leader should be Grigol Hamam.

Third, where’s the Kingdom (well, Duchy at this point I guess) of Kakheti? Its leader should be Gabriel Donauri. It was quite an interesting little state as it was a sort of prince-bishopric, as I understand it.

Fourth, the whole Kingdom of Georgia tag situation is a mess. There shouldn’t be a realm on the map in 867 with the Kingdom of Georgia title – there should just be Duchies. It seems as though the Kingdom of Georgia tag is attempting to represent Tao-Klarjeti, which should be a Duchy in the game although in real life I believe it was officially a Kingdom (this is true for the Kingdoms of Hereti and Kakheti too.) The realm should be called Tao-Klarjeti and own Tao, Klarjeti and Mtskheta provinces. Currently the situation sets up the Duchy of Abkhazia as a giant vassal of the Kingdom of Georgia, which is very wrong indeed – Abkhazia never fought an independence war against the Kingdom of Georgia in this period because it wasn’t under “Georgian” sovereignty in the first place – it was one of several competing duchies. Moreover, Armenia shouldn’t own Tao or Klarjeti – those were ultimately the base from which the Bagrationis united Georgia!

Also, the city of Tbilisi holding needs a Coat of Arms – it’s currently just black (the Emirate of Tbilisi obviously already has one, though.)

Finally, please remove “Koba” from the list of possible names for Georgians – it’s not a name anyone ever had in the game period, even as a nickname, and also it’s meme-y as hell.

EDIT TO ADD: I searched the Bug Reports forum and found this thread from September, making many of the same points as in this post.