Questions on naval combat

[Mr_B0narpte]

Please refer me to any online guides if they are any for AoD Naval combat.

General advice & the hard numbers on how naval battles work would be great, but here are some specific questions:-

* What is the benefit of matching the same amount of screens with capitals? I've heard it's positioning, but what if the naval doctrine favours capital ships by 20% over the screens, would adding screens then have a negative impact on positioning?
* How is naval positioning calculated? Is the upper limit limited to the lowest common dominator in the fleet?
* What are the statistical benefits of the different naval generals (i.e. I know sea wolf adds +10% to all submarines in their fleet; what about the % for spotters; blockade runners etc)?

 

[Pang Bingxun]

What is the benefit of matching the same amount of screens with capitals?

Benefit is probably the wrong idea. There is a huge penalty for having less screens than capitals. If your screens amount to only 25% of your capitals, than you get a 75% penalty on that entire formation of naval divisions. I donnot know how exactly it works if such a penalty occurs, but the essense is that such a case should be avoided at almost all cost. The mere stacking penalty is less severe, so having more than needed screens can serve as a reserve. Until the reserve is needed that is a disadvantage due to stacking penalty. If doctrines favour capitals over screen this is further incentive against such reserves, but having less than needed screen can hurt a lot.

Carriers hit capital ships first. Gun ships hit screens first.

How is naval positioning calculated? Is the upper limit limited to the lowest common dominator in the fleet

Pending naval doctrines each type of naval division has a maximum positioning and minimum positioning. By averaging over all your naval divisions in a naval battle the maximum positioning and the minimum positioning is calculated. Between those 2 values your positioning can vary.

There is a guide about naval warfare for HoI2, but of course it is not exactly the same in AoD.

https://hoi2.paradoxwikis.com/Naval_Primer

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Thanks for the info & link. Does adding CVLs to capital ship fleets still help? I feel like most doctrines give them awful positioning & since their combat stats are so low they'll only make a surface fleet weaker.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Does adding CVLs to capital ship fleets still help?

I doubt it.

One difficulty lies in the severe impact of randomness, which makes it hard to arrive at good empiric data that supports or falsifies a thesis.

 

[Commander666]

Forgive me if my answer is not related. But as regards mixing subs and surface ships, it must have a terrible impact on positioning for the subs. I am not discussing having 1 or 2 subs in a SAG fleet. Rather I am discussing separate pure Wolfpacks that easily get torpedo range (even against CVs) in most cases. But add a surface fleet, and positioning quickly goes to CV range (if carriers involved) or BB/CA range if only SAGs. The subs are soon nothing but unwanted stacking penalty.

Amazingly, as soon as player removes his surface fleets, the subs very quickly regain their preferred range, even if range was just at CV range.

The above appreciates that Germany is advanced in Sealane Interdiction doctrines, all subs are SS-4 and leaders SeaWolf guys, and Donitz is Chief of the Navy.

And the other - a pair of BB without any screens - heck, it makes an ordinary DD appear like a super battleship compared to what a pair of BBs can do without screens. I am sure Pang is right but I felt that in the case of 2 capitals and no screens it was more like a total penalty they were incurring. No impact at all on the three DDs attacking them, IIRC.

 

[Commander666]

One difficulty lies in the severe impact of randomness, which makes it hard to arrive at good empiric data that supports or falsifies a thesis.

Very true. On the other hand, there is another dimension to Mr_BOnarpte's question. In normal circumstances, then usually the CVL available to mix with a fleet will end up being the slowest ship in that stack. This is especially true if discussing the CVL-1 and CVL-2 which UK starts game with.

I think - just on basis of fleet speed loss - it is unsatisfactory to mix in the CVL. But if discussing a CVL with only some DDs, then the only criticism is that it is a strong but quite slow ASW group. So OK if used in the proper place.

Now, if we change the question to consider building CVL-3 (who have excellent speed - 30kmp IIRC) to be part of SAGs, then finding an answer indeed sinks into the randomness of good empirical data on the matter.

On the other hand, Mr_BOnarpte, would you want to risk your SAG seeking a position of ~60-80 km so that the only thing firing is the CVL? I have experienced this so many times with a CVL and attached DDs versus enemy sub. Yes, we caught the enemy sub, but only the CVL is hitting it. I felt - if I could get rid of the CVL - then my much faster DDs with ASW brigade would sink the sub because of their far greater combined sub attack value. But would just the DDs alone ever have found the sub in the first place? No idea! On the other hand, the CVL alone hitting never yet sank any sub best I can recall, with the enemy usually managing an escape before the CVL could sink it.

So - in the end - I don't mix in CVL except if I got them at start - like playing UK - so they form part of my worst, oldest and weakness DD hunter-killer groups. That seems slightly better than disbanding them. I once build CVL-3 as USA to attach to TP groups (included a D-4) but would never do that again because I discovered a better way to let TPs run alone while always under escort by a line of "picket fleets" spread along the entire TP's route. The CVL and DD attached to TPs was simply no meaningful defense against the many enemy CTFs they attracted.

So, I'm afraid it's a total thumbs down for CVLs, IMO.

 

[Hister]

Uha.

So CVL's main role is as escorts to transports and that too is contested?

Historically they were reserved for transports and for lesser operations like subs hunting, right?

Can the beta change their current abysmal role (if devs actually agree that their ingame performance is not on par with their historical one)?

 

[Commander666]

One of their major uses in the Pacific was simply the transport of aircraft from the States, I believe. But the frontline CVLs were used as you say and to increase flights over the islands being amphibed. The naval battles they did get famously involved in was quite by accident.

 

[MJF]

Does adding CVLs to capital ship fleets still help? I feel like most doctrines give them awful positioning & since their combat stats are so low they'll only make a surface fleet weaker.

I played a game as Germany (1.10 I believe), and decided to "test" the CVL with SAGs. I reasoned that CVL I & II were fairly useless, as their speed was too poor compared to CA IVs that I intended to use them with. When I (finally) got a CVL III out of production, and made a SAG of 1 CVL III, 5 CA IVs, with 3 + 3 screen IVs, I found an interesting, but hoped-for, experience:

1. The CVL SAG detected the enemy fleet at an earlier range.

2. While taking some (slight) damage, it closed to CA IV range, fairly quickly it seemed -- It did not suffer from staying at (weak) CVL range!

3. Once it closed to optimum range, the enemy fleet was decimated.

However, I couldn't try this on large emeny SAGs, as, by the time I got this fleet assembled, I had already plastered most of the enemy capital ships.

 

[Hister]

I played a game as Germany (1.10 I believe), and decided to "test" the CVL with SAGs. I reasoned that CVL I & II were fairly useless, as their speed was too poor compared to CA IVs that I intended to use them with. When I (finally) got a CVL III out of production, and made a SAG of 1 CVL III, 5 CA IVs, with 3 + 3 screen IVs, I found an interesting, but hoped-for, experience:

1. The CVL SAG detected the enemy fleet at an earlier range.

2. While taking some (slight) damage, it closed to CA IV range, fairly quickly it seemed -- It did not suffer from staying at (weak) CVL range!

3. Once it closed to optimum range, the enemy fleet was decimated.

However, I couldn't try this on large emeny SAGs, as, by the time I got this fleet assembled, I had already plastered most of the enemy capital ships.

Got ya! Thank you.