Questions and tips on theocracies and republics

[Harassercat]

I've read closely what I could find in the wiki and forum posts here about both theocracies and republics, both as vassal governments and also merchant republics as the top-level government. I've of course also had a little in-game experience with vassal MR's and theocracies. But there are still things I'm uncertain about, so I'm here to ask about this.

1. Is the "rule of 10%" max counties held by theocracies/republics only calculated for direct vassals? That is, could I create multiple theocratic counties/duchies and then "hide" them under vassal dukes/kings and still stay under the limit?
2. Do theocracies or republics have a comparable limit to how many feudal vassals they can have?
3. Can I conquer or otherwise vassalize a theocracy or republic if I'm already at my respective limit? If yes, it would be possible to circumvent the limit by creating and granting independence to alternate governments, and then retaking them later.
4. If I first give a non-coastal county to a mayor and then give him a duchy which has one or more coastal counties, will a merchant republic be formed?
5. Can a merchant republic have another merchant republic as a vassal? Or will the vassal MR be dissolved and converted into a regular republic?
6. How about vassal holy orders within a realm? Their members are theocratic yet they normally hold castles. If they're granted counties, will they count towards the theocracy limit? Is there any particular benefit to giving them land? I've had a holy order declare war on me once for some random claimant of theirs, even though they had no chance to win, so I'm a little wary of these guys.

More generally, how do experienced players prefer to set up their vassal theocracies and/or republics in a large realm? Also, how are large merchant republics (kingdom- or empire-level) ideally organized?

 

[Harassercat]

Okay I found the answer to question #1 already by some quick experimenting in-game: sub-vassals count towards the limit so you cannot "hide" them under your direct vassals. This means that it's more ideal to have theocracies/republics as direct vassals so their juicy tax incomes don't get slashed down by the low tax rate on your feudal vassals, not to mention that those same feudal vassals might adopt a low tax rate on their churches or burghers.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Problem with doing that is unless your merchant republics are under your primary kingdom your (eventual) vassal kings will gobble them up.

If you make them strong enough to resist that you have the triple whammy of a king tier vassal who wants a de jure vassal, less individual merchant republics as you get closer to 10% off of one republic, and worse off a militarily strong MR who has permanent opinion malus against you.

 

[Harassercat]

I'm having trouble understanding your reply.... first, if the vassal doge holds a real de jure duchy which is part of my de jure kingdom, then my vassal kings would need a proper claim to gobble that up. I guess they can fabricate or push a claim for one of their own vassals, but at least that's something I can react to. Also in a wider sense, wouldn't those greedy vassal kings be trying to gobble up all vassals in my kingdom then, as they'll all be weaker than the kings?

As far as I understand I cannot, as a feudal ruler, make a king-tier doge or bishop simply by granting the title. You have to make it happen by some wonky ways (how?), if you really want it. I've already had a regular vassal doge as a king (not emperor) and although he never posed a threat to me, he was almost impossible to have on the council, because half the council always owed him favors (must be because he was rich enough to buy favors).

So, what's the best way with merchant republics? Have them as independent tributaries? Have them as indirect vassals under someone else? Not have them at all? - They seem to be worth having around for the boosted city income.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

I personally have one in my primary kingdom in the smallest duchies. Then give his de jure counties to some other duke tier vassal.

That way no one has any de jure claims over him and I will not be forced to declare realm peace every time he gets warred on.

Secondly I would place them on incredibly small de jure kingdoms, such as Asturias (2 counties,) Navarra, Venice, and Taurica (whatever kingdom Crimea is in.)

If Genoa or Pisa stay independent for long enough they drift their duchies out of Italy. They're also another option. Genoa is prefereble.

Don't make both Navarra and Asturias of course, they will just block each other.

 

[Harassercat]

So, as I understand this, it's preferable to have mostly regular republics as vassals. I guess ideally as direct vassals in coastal counties or on the silk road. Then if there's no MR in your area and you want your dynasty to control one, form it by granting a lone coastal mayor his local duchy title, but give the other counties in the duchy to someone else.

This stuff is complicated. I've played this game for ~260 hours and still feel like a new player. Also I'm still unsure if you can give a duchy which is partially coastal (has one or more coastal counties) to a lord mayor in a non-coastal county without a new MR being formed.

 

[TL_]

So, as I understand this, it's preferable to have mostly regular republics as vassals.

Merchant Republics will (given time to grow) generate a lot more money than a normal republic. They also have a tendency to generate a lot of useful characters because each of the five major houses needs a court, meaning you have that many more subjects to choose from when landing someone from your realm - good if you're a crusader state. Republics also seem to have rulers with good stats, perhaps because of the ability to designate heirs, so they make for good councilors.

 

[Dragatus]

I've read closely what I could find in the wiki and forum posts here about both theocracies and republics, both as vassal governments and also merchant republics as the top-level government. I've of course also had a little in-game experience with vassal MR's and theocracies. But there are still things I'm uncertain about, so I'm here to ask about this.

1. Is the "rule of 10%" max counties held by theocracies/republics only calculated for direct vassals? That is, could I create multiple theocratic counties/duchies and then "hide" them under vassal dukes/kings and still stay under the limit?
2. Do theocracies or republics have a comparable limit to how many feudal vassals they can have?
3. Can I conquer or otherwise vassalize a theocracy or republic if I'm already at my respective limit? If yes, it would be possible to circumvent the limit by creating and granting independence to alternate governments, and then retaking them later.
4. If I first give a non-coastal county to a mayor and then give him a duchy which has one or more coastal counties, will a merchant republic be formed?
5. Can a merchant republic have another merchant republic as a vassal? Or will the vassal MR be dissolved and converted into a regular republic?
6. How about vassal holy orders within a realm? Their members are theocratic yet they normally hold castles. If they're granted counties, will they count towards the theocracy limit? Is there any particular benefit to giving them land? I've had a holy order declare war on me once for some random claimant of theirs, even though they had no chance to win, so I'm a little wary of these guys.

More generally, how do experienced players prefer to set up their vassal theocracies and/or republics in a large realm? Also, how are large merchant republics (kingdom- or empire-level) ideally organized?

Skipping #1 because you figured it out yourself.

2. Yes. Rulers in general are limited to a maximum of 10% of their teritory belonging to vassals with a different government type. Note however, that this only bars rulers from creating more vassals of a different government type and from granting more land to existing vassals of a different type. It does not give any penalties to having vassals of a different type, other than the -20 "wrong government" opinion modifier they have towards you. Note also that this limit does not prohibit transferring your vassal counts to a vassal duke+ tier theocracy or republic (or vassal dukes to a vassal king tier theocracy or republic).

3. I believe you can and the method would work. However, you can only grant independence to vassals that are either not your de jure vassals or follow a different religion. So the method would only really work for de jure vassals that don't match your religion (you can both set them independent and have a CB to take them back).

4. I'm not entirely sure, but I think the trick likely wouldn't work.

5. No, a MR can't have another MR as vassal. It can only have normal republics as vassals. But they can have as many as they want.

6. I checked and in my version of the game members of holy orders are feudal type, not theocratic. There is no specific benefit to granting them land if they're not your vassal, but if you manage to vassalize one and it owns no land yet, you can grant the grandmaster a barony in your capital and that will make it his capital too. He'll then use his technology points to improve your technology. The same can also be done with a vassal Pope, vassal Ecumenical Patriarch, and the duke tier leader of a vassalized mercenary company.

 

[Harassercat]

Thank you Dragatus for a clear and concise reply.

On #3, even if you could exploit this to get an abnormally large % of theocracies in your realm, you'll never be able to revoke a title or otherwise reorganize those theocratic/republican titles... and it's just very gamey.

As for #4, I ask not because I'd want an MR to form under those circumstances but rather the opposite - I might like to create a regular republic that is partially coastal. I'd ideally want my republics to be coastal so they can benefit from the trade posts that my vassal MR would eventually set up there. It might even be ideal to have theocracies in a coastal location too, if they have a few city vassals then I'd get more tax out of those cities if they have a theocratic liege rather than a feudal one.

I'm sure you're right that holy orders are feudal, I didn't bother to check. Thanks for the tip on having them in the capital county for tech, that's a good one. Other than that I guess the only upside of having a holy order as a significant vassal is that the leader might be more qualified than some random good-for-nothing ambitious & envious feudal heir; and he's more likely to be a zealot in the council, if that suits your needs (e.g. aggressive crusader state).

 

[TL_]

I'm sure you're right that holy orders are feudal, I didn't bother to check.

They're theocracies, they have special succession laws. At the top level they use Open Elective like Republics, but for every castle they control they use Appointment, which works like viceroyalties but for county and barony level titles as well.