Questions after watching Blorg

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telgalad

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Hey all,

Long time player of Europa 4 and recently been playing a bit of CK2. A friend told me about Stellaris so I went and watch the 3 hours we have on the Blorg playthrough that they are doing every Thursday. (If you want to see it go to https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/profile)

I have a few questions and comments after having watched it 3 or 4 times now.

First off I would like to request that panda and wolf races be added to the mammalian Appearance choices... No specific reason, but they were what I immediately looked for when I went back to examine the difference species shown. Nice job on the variance btw, I think a lot of them look cool, and I laughed a lot at the Fungoid options. I would also like to request that during the next blorg video could you show what is under the PLANT subsection. It was never shown during the videos so far and I am a bit curious why that one is listed in all caps while the rest aren't...

Second, this is a pet peeve of mine in similar games, but in many games a race/player with a massive tech boost tends to be able to run away with the game. I noticed that the intelligent racial trait gives a flat 10% bonus to all research production as well as Natural engineers/physicists/sociologists Give 15% to their individual research generation. With 4 point maximum I foresee 25% in one and 10% in another with a negative in something along the lines of happiness like repugnant which is only a -1% to other species happiness. After this you take fanatic Materialist which gives you a 10% Research output to each category, making the current output +35%/+20%/+20%. Along with this your researchers all give a reduction to research time. For Government type you take Despotic Hegemony for a +5% to all research speed. In the video the starting scientists gave 2%/2%/7% as well as showing that a common early game research was Administrative AI giving a 5% research speed for the rest of the game. They also showed it was a common and possibly a weighted research choice since it appeared 3 out of 4 times before being chosen.

Meaning it is EASILY possible that 5 years into the game you have the following: Research production +35%/+20%/+20% and Research speed + 12%/12%/17%.
This is also without any character special abilities (which a 10% research speed was shown)...I feel that this is simply to much of an advantage against most other species/civilisations... Easily capable of a runaway tech build. Can we get a general answer to what balances the above tech build with other builds that are more about happiness or resources?

Third, It was mentioned that choosing your starting weapon is similar to rock paper scissors. However all ships start the game with just armor, no shields or point defence or other types of defences... As such energy weapons seem to be flat best early in the game from what we have seen. It would be nice to get a few more details showing how its a equal opportunity choice.

Fourth, I cant immagine how Hyperspace lanes are not the flat worst FTL method available (at least at start). From what we have seen Warp travel is fairly quick and once you are in sector FTL us subbed for your thrusters. Since Hyperspace is limited to "Existing Paths along the network" I cant see how this would be a good idea especially if their are roundabout connections taking 3-4 logistical jumps to get the a area thats actually right next to you. This could make expansion in the early game extremely difficult. Also in late game Wormhole is a huge sacrifice. If your in an alliance or federation and need to jump have the map, you are out of luck because you are stuck with the range of your wormhole stations.
Can we receive more elaboration on how this is balanced?

I will have more questions after the next stream on thursday but would love to hear answers to the above... Or if I am just completely wrong I would LOve a correction just as well :)
 
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afek

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KingHoot

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You make an excellent point about the research advantage, I can only assume though that it IS balanced by other factors.

I do, however, want to comment on the FLT choice point you made. You've got it all mixed up, matey. In the Blorg stream and in the demo with Quill18 they both picked Hyperspace lanes so I'm not sure where you have seen the Warp speed?

EDIT :- as the OP states below, I missed the selection on the Thursday stream. Wiz selected warp, Quill selected Hyperlanes. My points still stand however.

From what I've read and seen though there are inherent advantages and disadvantages to all FTL methods :-

WARP
  • Unrestricted travel giving enhanced mobility
  • Relatively slow compared to other FLT techs
HYPERLANES
  • Faster than warp for travelling system to system
  • Restricted to hyperlane network
WORMHOLES
  • The ability to travel to any system more or less instantly
  • No travel between systems without using a wormhole generator
The balance really comes in how you play the game. I can think of numerous examples where one method would give an advantage over another and also numerous examples where you have a disadvantage.

E.g. PLAYER 1 has Warp travel and is wanting to colonise a system that is within the range of PLAYER 2 as well. PLAYER 2 has to take 5 Hyperlane jumps to get there, but PLAYER 1 just warps up and heads straight there beating the other player to it.

E.g PLAYER 1 has Warp travel and is exploring system by system at the speed allowed. PLAYER 2 has managed to explore FAR MORE than the other player because he has been hopping from planet to planet using hyperlanes and due to his increased exploration has discovered several beneficial anomalies that PLAYER 1 has not.

E.g PLAYER 1 has Wormhole travel and has a deathfleet building up in and around his core worlds. PLAYER 2 has Warp travel and is fighting PLAYER 1 at the empire border in a series of border disputes which he is winning due to commiting much of his fleet there. PLAYER 1 opens a wormhole directly into the other players core worlds, taking advantage of PLAYER 2's overcommitment as well as the fact that he cannot return his fleet fast enough to deal with the threat. By the time he returns, PLAYER 1 has decimated a system and left unscathed, via the same Wormhole.

I mean we haven't even seen the game yet so I'm just spitballing but on this aspect at least I see a lot of interesting gameplay emerging from it.
 
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telgalad

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I do, however, want to comment on the FLT choice point you made. You've got it all mixed up, matey. In the Blorg stream and in the demo with Quill18 they both picked Hyperspace lanes so I'm not sure where you have seen the Warp speed?

Please go look at the first video at https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/54999695 . Timestamp 20 minutes 40 sconds to mark 21 minutes 0 seconds. He states and selects warp travel for the blorg... So to my knowledge we have yet to see hyperspace or wormhole travel... But jus the speed we have seen in warp travel in the videos seems to make it the best in general...
 
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KingHoot

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Please go look at the first video at https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/54999695 . Timestamp 20 minutes 40 sconds to mark 21 minutes 0 seconds. He states and selects warp travel for the blorg... So to my knowledge we have yet to see hyperspace or wormhole travel... But jus the speed we have seen in warp travel in the videos seems to make it the best in general...

I did miss that, I could have sworn he selected Hyperlanes.

Even so, check this video
(timestamp 22:30) and you can see a clear difference in the speed. Hyperlanes are so effing quick.

So my point stands, there is no "best" travel type. All it does is change how you play the game and what options and plays are available to you.
 
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telgalad

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Good catch @KingHoot ! It seems to be several times faster! And from the show of "hyperspace Paths" it would not seem to be much of a disadvantage save for short term goals. Very interesting indeed, I had not seen that video before so I will go Watch it in full.
 

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Quill selected hyperspace in his video

EDIT: Aww, Ninja'ed by KingHoot

The main difference between hyperspace and warp is that hyperspace takes charge up time pre-jump and can be initiated from anywhere within the gravity well of the solar system. Warp ships have to fly to the outside of the gravity well before jumping and they remain in a low-power state for quite a bit after arrival. Warp jumps can also be detected by other players, so they could have a hostile fleet waiting at the destination who will be able to take advantage of said low power state. This can be seen in the newest Blorg stream at the 2h, 1m, and 47sec mark. https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/56330432 (not sure how to set a twitch URL to jump straight to that time, sorry)
 
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telgalad

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Indeed, Having now viewed the two and reviewed what I could between Quills 2 videos and the blorg streams, I much prefer the hyperspace verses the warp jumps... Though I am sure that may change once Ive actually had my hands on them!
 

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Indeed, Having now viewed the two and reviewed what I could between Quills 2 videos and the blorg streams, I much prefer the hyperspace verses the warp jumps... Though I am sure that may change once Ive actually had my hands on them!

I'm glad I gave you the opportunity to look at both sides :) Personally, I'll be doing Warp for my first race just to get to grips with things and because every space 4X I've played has used hyperlanes so I appreciate the variation. Probably go Warp > Wormhole > Hyperlanes.
 
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Frank327

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We might be underestimating how slow and vulerable a warp fleet is. In the blorg stream it took many months for the assault fleet to reach the bird planet and upon arrival any fleet is a sitting duck for 20 days. And that's on top of being more expensive per ship than other ftl methods.

Especially for big empires wormholes seem way better to me because your fleet can move around in your empire really quickly and react before you lose planets. Also you can instantly strike kinda deep in enemy territory as long as you have a reserve fleet to protect you wormhole station.
 
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Please go look at the first video at https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/v/54999695 . Timestamp 20 minutes 40 sconds to mark 21 minutes 0 seconds. He states and selects warp travel for the blorg... So to my knowledge we have yet to see hyperspace or wormhole travel... But jus the speed we have seen in warp travel in the videos seems to make it the best in general...
in the last stream when the comet threatened the colony it took 2 months (I think :rolleyes:) to reach the location that day 2 systems over from blorg. Not that fast imo....
 
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Twogs

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Second, this is a pet peeve of mine in similar games, but in many games a race/player with a massive tech boost tends to be able to run away with the game. I noticed that the intelligent racial trait gives a flat 10% bonus to all research production as well as Natural engineers/physicists/sociologists Give 15% to their individual research generation. With 4 point maximum I foresee 25% in one and 10% in another with a negative in something along the lines of happiness like repugnant which is only a -1% to other species happiness. After this you take fanatic Materialist which gives you a 10% Research output to each category, making the current output +35%/+20%/+20%. Along with this your researchers all give a reduction to research time. For Government type you take Despotic Hegemony for a +5% to all research speed. In the video the starting scientists gave 2%/2%/7% as well as showing that a common early game research was Administrative AI giving a 5% research speed for the rest of the game. They also showed it was a common and possibly a weighted research choice since it appeared 3 out of 4 times before being chosen.

Meaning it is EASILY possible that 5 years into the game you have the following: Research production +35%/+20%/+20% and Research speed + 12%/12%/17%.
This is also without any character special abilities (which a 10% research speed was shown)...I feel that this is simply to much of an advantage against most other species/civilisations... Easily capable of a runaway tech build. Can we get a general answer to what balances the above tech build with other builds that are more about happiness or resources?

But of what use is a modificator to research output and speed, when you lack in areas like: Mineral production, population growth and so on. Yes you use your existing sources of science very well, but this will simply be balanced out by the fact that you can't expand as fast and so your base production will be lower.

See the Blorg - they were cornered pretty fast because they didn't expanded fast enough, just a few months faster and they would have gotten those nice tropical worlds from the reptile aliens.

Also it is stated that there are disasters triggered through too much resarch - which you will have to face earlier, with an again even smaller empire. You are much more likely to get severly damaged by them then.

Third, It was mentioned that choosing your starting weapon is similar to rock paper scissors. However all ships start the game with just armor, no shields or point defence or other types of defences... As such energy weapons seem to be flat best early in the game from what we have seen. It would be nice to get a few more details showing how its a equal opportunity choice.

As stated allready by someone else, you start with no of the defenses, so every weapon is equally effective.


Fourth, I cant immagine how Hyperspace lanes are not the flat worst FTL method available (at least at start). From what we have seen Warp travel is fairly quick and once you are in sector FTL us subbed for your thrusters. Since Hyperspace is limited to "Existing Paths along the network" I cant see how this would be a good idea especially if their are roundabout connections taking 3-4 logistical jumps to get the a area thats actually right next to you. This could make expansion in the early game extremely difficult. Also in late game Wormhole is a huge sacrifice. If your in an alliance or federation and need to jump have the map, you are out of luck because you are stuck with the range of your wormhole stations.
Can we receive more elaboration on how this is balanced?

I will have more questions after the next stream on thursday but would love to hear answers to the above... Or if I am just completely wrong I would LOve a correction just as well :)

Yeah, the have disadvantages and advantages, thats what makes them different. I don't see a problem here. Pick the one that suits your play style the most. For a highly xenophobic, isolationistic empire Whormhole Stations are just perfect
 
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Yenzen

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A few things not mentioned with hyperlanes:

- They require less energy, leaving more for weapons.
- They do not need to transverse systems. If you watch the videos, this takes far more time than the actual FTL jump!
 
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Rabid

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You've fallen into the same logical hole a lot of people have when looking at tech bonuses - yes they're good in a vacuum but there's an opportunity cost for taking them, and the other potential choices will make your expansion faster (be it peaceful or by conquest) initially so that you will have a larger resource base to draw on, meaning more minerals and energy to do tile improvements or colonies, or more pops to work tiles, both of which means more raw tech points produced in the first place.

Research does seem like a fairly safe bet to focus on as it will always be useful, but as one of the posters above said; in the Blorg stream if they had pushed out that colony 6 months faster from having +growth or +minerals bonuses then they would have got a huge leg up from claiming that chunk of space for themselves.

The one reservation I do have is the potential weakness of traits / ethos / government bonuses which don't directly affect your ability to produce more resources - i.e. military bonuses. Strange to think compared to EU4 where mil bonuses are king but in Stellaris you're quite likely not going to be warring quickly, there's space out there to grow without fighting at all initially, and if you don't run into someone you can conquer fast then you could well fall into the position of just being straight up weaker than the super-tech species after they've had 15-20 years to pull ahead on techs.
 
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Exemplar Voss

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in the last stream when the comet threatened the colony it took 2 months (I think :rolleyes:) to reach the location that day 2 systems over from blorg. Not that fast imo....
Asteroid. Comets seem exclusively good things so far, which is very confusing. :D
 
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Voidlord

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Looking at the vid, what were the advantages between the Striker Core and the Interceptor Core?
I know the SC had 1S and 1M weapon module, while the IC had 3S, theoretically both have the same firepower, but I didn't see the utility modules for either, did anybody catch it?
 

Finalsong

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Personally, I think that the first point you mentioned is a non-issue. Just me, but I think it's realistic that certain species will research things faster than others, or even exponentially faster that others. Besides, I really like those bonuses that materlalist and intelligent give pls no nerf
 

Yenzen

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Personally, I think that the first point you mentioned is a non-issue. Just me, but I think it's realistic that certain species will research things faster than others, or even exponentially faster that others. Besides, I really like those bonuses that materlalist and intelligent give pls no nerf

The thing with that is that any bonuses from ethos (Like +10% damage) will quickly be caught up by 3 extra techs for every 15 or so. And then it keeps getting more pronounced.

Materialism and intelligent traits should not be no brainers (hehe), but equal alternatives.

If having those traits means you will always have 20-30% more technologies, it'll mean you're just 20-30% better since the static bonuses of ethoi and government will fade in importance as science just gives the same things, to all pops, not just your own.

That is to say, yeah science focused species should have an edge tech wise, I just hope there's a rubber band effect where other factions can keep up maybe 10 years behind through the game.

You'll get the new toys first and can use them to surprise your enemy - but in the next war your enemy will have had the chance to catch up and you'll need a new trick.

Overall, not having any science focus should not be something that can't be compensated for in other ways.

Traits and ethoi should not be defended because they're better and players depend on them, but scaled to prevent stuff you should get unless you're playing badly.
 
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