Questions about trucks (Devs please read and Answer if you can)

[Gamer_1745]

separate from regular infantry -- lighter, faster. I don't necessarily think that you should be required to build the bicycles to equip them. That can be abstracted into the amount of infantry kits required to equip the division.

I think, and I am far from sure, this is too HoI3 thinking. I am not sure how much unit type will effect unit speed. Say a mountain div without any artillery would move though mountains as fast as an infantry div without any artillery and similarly a mountain div with heavy artillery would move the same speed as a regular infantry div with heavy artillery. Now if a mountain div with pack artillery would move though faster than a regular infantry div with heavy artillery.

It does get back mainly to the mechanics, is a bicycle a slow cheap one person truck that uses no fuel or do we call a unit 'light infantry' (not just not giving it any heavy weapons) or 'bicycle troops' and make it go faster?

 

[Gamer_1745]

@potski

Yes very much what you said! How will it work? I kept my original questions simple. People please don't focus too much on not wanting complexity, I understand your point. I just want to know how it works.

 

[potski]

We don't have a good idea how it will work, just we can make some educated guesses.

Be patient - your questions will get answered by the devs. Alpha is approved, features are complete and they will be issuing much more information, confident that it isn't going to be changed much as they go along.

But Johan has over 30 topics he could fill DDs with, so you might have to wait a while. I seem to remember him doing weekly DDs for over 6 months with HOI3, and things like Twitch and YouTube have changed things so much since then. I hope they will allow some let's play type previews by a few well known strategy YouTube gamers before release, and these should show how the features all work.

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

This isn't HOI3 though. You will build a definite number of trucks per week. To plan the right amount of factories to put into the production line you really need to know how many trucks are required for an MOT battalion (1,000 men), and multiply accordingly if your MOT Divs contain say 4 or 6 battalions. Then add how many trucks are required for an artillery support unit, and engineers etc to make the Div fully motorised.

Let's say for example that an MOT battalion needs 75 trucks, then you have a figure of about 13 men per truck. Ofc some could have 20 men, while other vehicles have baggage/supplies. But we have an approximate understanding of the "men capacity" of the trucks you build.

The stats have to be pretty detailed, because the game needs to know what happens to the overall stats of a battalion if it doesn't have 75 trucks. Either you failed to supply it with enough trucks, or some of the trucks are out of action due to combat losses, or attrition losses. How fast can the battalion move if it only has 50 operational trucks? Since we assume it won't just abandon one of it's companies, some trucks will be required to make multiple journeys when the Battalion is on the march, and it's ability in combat to deploy it's force quickly where required on the battlefield is degraded.

Ultimately as the number of trucks reduce, but the number of men in the battalion remains the same, the stats come closer to the stats of a foot infantry battalion.

I only said we don't need to know how many men fit in one truck or such small details, we only need to know how many trucks I need to finish a division template, that's all. I never said we won't have to make sure that they have their trucks or that we don't have to know how many trucks they need. I bet that when multiple trucks are destroyed while the infantry causalities have not been that high the speed of the whole division will simply get a malus as an abstraction. I've never doubted that.

EDIT:
We also already know that half tracks for mechanized divisions and the trucks for motorized divisions are two seperate types of equipment. I'm sure that was said by the devs some time.

 

[shri]

Horse fodder? Seriously? That would simply be a supply cost of cavalry units. Cav divisions simply don't use fuel, 'cept they include any kind of vehicle.

YES. Horse Fodder. Do you know that one of the primary reasons for the awful performance of Russian Armies in WW1 was the presence of those massed cavalry divisions.
Each Cavalry corps of 6000 Sabres/Carbines ate up enough supplies of 2 to 3 infantry divisions i.e. 30000+ troops.
Cavalry was a huge liability.
Supplying fodder and hay will be a big liability, it should stretch your logistic system.

Just like having a Truck Logistic train should affect logistics, this was the primary reasons why Germany fought so hard to retain the important railway lines in Russia.

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

YES. Horse Fodder. Do you know that one of the primary reasons for the awful performance of Russian Armies in WW1 was the presence of those massed cavalry divisions.
Each Cavalry corps of 6000 Sabres/Carbines ate up enough supplies of 2 to 3 infantry divisions i.e. 30000+ troops.
Cavalry was a huge liability.
Supplying fodder and hay will be a big liability, it should stretch your logistic system.

Just like having a Truck Logistic train should affect logistics, this was the primary reasons why Germany fought so hard to retain the important railway lines in Russia.

Then simply make the supply cost of cav units high, done. We don't need horse fodder as its own thing.

 

[podcat]

The talk about horses & trucks in another thread has promoted me to post a few questions on trucks that I hope you can answer at this time.

1. Will or can (if modded) different trucks (or half-tracks) have different carrying weights? As in light trucks can carry 10 men & heavy trucks carry 20 men.

2. Will or can (if modded) trucks be used to carry (or tow) things other than troops? Like artillery?

2a. If trucks can (or be modded to) tow (carry) artillery, can an artillery gun have a weight of 15 that requires a truck with a carrying capacity of 15 or greater and not 2 ten capacity trucks?

3. What happens if a unit loses enough trucks so that it has few than needed for the number of troops? I am thinking about winter effects, reliability breakdowns, combat or other reasons? Does the unit slowdown or just lose the excess troops?

4. Will or can (if modded) trucks carry supplies? So more trucks (or wagons if modded in) in a division the more supplies it can carry.

There seems to be so many fun things I could mod into the game!

Thanks

1. no, trucks dont have carry weight, different battalions have X needed trucks for optimal performance
2. yea
2a. see 1
3. you lose speed, but depends how you set up the unit types
4. maybe

 

[Gamer_1745]

Thank You so much for the answers!!!!

 

[Rudawitz]

Q : Will or can (if modded) trucks carry supplies? So more trucks (or wagons if modded in) in a division the more supplies it can carry.

A : maybe


Follow up: Can we have a DD on logistics soon?

 

[tommylotto]

Yes. That "maybe" answer sounds mysterious...
Interesting, but mysterious.

 

[Centurion1973]

Q : Will or can (if modded) trucks carry supplies? So more trucks (or wagons if modded in) in a division the more supplies it can carry.

A : maybe


Follow up: Can we have a DD on logistics soon?

I agree, that logistics DD would be great. It was one of HoI3 major weak points.

 

[potski]

trucks dont have carry weight displayed in the GUI, different battalions have X needed trucks for optimal performance

Corrected that for you. The maths is just:

Men in battalion / Number of trucks required

And it must be in the code. Otherwise you will be giving a movement malus if a Div has less than the maximum number of trucks, even if it doesn't have the maximum number of men. A battalion with 800 men and 40 trucks can surely move at the same speed as one with 1,000 men and 50 trucks. The constant in the equation is the capacity of the trucks.

And this is a maximum level, battalions with all their trucks intact, but only 800 men available can't move any quicker.

Actually, defining this capacity explicitly in the game files makes sense. More advanced infantry equipment as the war progresses is heavier, so the capacity of men per truck would reduce. So there's an incentive to develop better trucks, or you are going to have to build more 1936 trucks to keep a 1943 battalion fully motorised.

 

[melens7s]

Pod,

I for one strongly urge you to consider having truck and truck production as part of the HOI4 logistics system. Moving all the supplies, ammo, fuel, etc. that an army requires takes a lot of truck convoys. And trucks break down and need maintenance - just ask the Germans on the Eastern Front - so having enough of them (or not) really did make or break offensives. If you think about it, it indeed has strategic effects on a conflict.

Regards,

melens7s

 

[Alex_brunius]

I for one strongly urge you to consider having truck and truck production as part of the HOI4 logistics system. Moving all the supplies, ammo, fuel, etc. that an army requires takes a lot of truck convoys.

That would be pretty cool. When Eisenhower was asked by his superiors what he needed to win in North Africa his response was something like: 10000 trucks, and I need them here yesterday.


The tricky part is that if you want it in a historical way then trucks are only needed as "fillers" when rail/infra levels are bad, because for most larger operations the supplies would go 95% of the distance with rail instead and only use trucks to keep up with division movement from the closest possible rail offloading point.

So what you ideally want is a system that needs more trucks for logistics when your moving on the offense, and when your operating far away from ports & good infrastructure. Kind of like Transport Capacity (TC) worked in HoI2 and AoD.

So trucks would be a "workaround" that allowed nations with enough IC & fuel to move larger forces then normal, further then normal from ports and good terrain. Of-course also assuming no mud...

 

[shri]

@Alex_brunius

As one of the few people advocating a logistics based game since HOI2 & 3,
What is your take on the "SPIRAL" and how do you show it?
Say you have X trucks to supply Y divisions on the offensive but you need, A1 amount of Trucks to supply X trucks and A2 amount of Trucks to supply A1 and so on.
Where X>A1>A2>....>An.
Also similarly in case of Horses and Horse fodder.
This was one of the primary problems in North Africa and Russia.

 

[Praetori]

@Alex_brunius

As one of the few people advocating a logistics based game since HOI2 & 3,
What is your take on the "SPIRAL" and how do you show it?
Say you have X trucks to supply Y divisions on the offensive but you need, A1 amount of Trucks to supply X trucks and A2 amount of Trucks to supply A1 and so on.
Where X>A1>A2>....>An.
Also similarly in case of Horses and Horse fodder.
This was one of the primary problems in North Africa and Russia.

Being versed in the actual issue AFK the theory is quite simple in the end (though von Clausewitz's quote on simplicity always rings true).
It all comes down to the speed of the supplychain with the Red Ball Express and Taifun on each end of the scale. Adding more logistical capability in the form of trucks, camels, planes etc is quite possible but will, of course as you stated, increase the overall requirements of supply up the point where the infrastructure and geography make further gains hopelessly small (at which point engineering projects at Army or Theater level comes into play but that's another story).

The REAL trick as I see it is having a GUI in a game that lets the player, intuitively, understand what limitations the terrain/geography and infrastructure impose (though not until you actually have some real intel on the area/region). Add as many trucks as you like but on a single dirt road there's a point where things will get ugly (and even uglier if you keep throwing more vehicles into the mix), IRL you will even degrade the infrastructure by putting too much heavy traffic along a few roads not built to handle the weight and volumes.
The fuel and supply requirements of your Gargantuan US Armored Corps might prevent you from effectively taking a certain path/province but that needs to be efficiently and correctly relayed to the player (and AI as they handle most operations in the end).
Now one could argue that historically a lot of mistakes were made in the area of logistics but the lack of intel on the current infrastructure would probably be enough to simulate this deficiency (confusing the player is never a good thing). The worst possible outcome is a system where neither the player nor the AI can make sense of the logistical footprint or foresee the issues that will arise from pushing 30 Panzer.Div towards Caucasus (and we'll have a gazillion whinethreads complaining about a broken supply system as in HOI3).

 

[shri]

@Praetori

Well, the RED BALL EXPRESS wasn't as successful as claimed by Allied Propaganda and Taiphoon was a total failure due to some climatic conditions beyond its control.
In War Time- FOG OF WAR (FOW) often clouds judgement and it is better for the 30th Panzer to get stuck on the door step of Maikop than reaching it successfully and rendering the game a - pseudo simulation based on WW2 forces.
Intel is never 100% in real, even with Enigma cracked, the Allied forces faced a lot of problems post September 1944, the first 3 months they swept away all German forces, the Germans suffered some 0.5 Million casualties in a little over 3 months and also lost over 2000 Tanks and 2000 Planes but the Allies struggled to maintain even 1/10th of that initial pace after September 1944. Logistics had caught up with their advance guards and coupled with better leadership in place in the German forces, the allies nearly sat on their A** for the next 3 months. Even after re-starting the advance post 'Battle of Bulge' the advance never reached the initial pace or even threatened to reach it.

 

[Praetori]

@Praetori

Well, the RED BALL EXPRESS wasn't as successful as claimed by Allied Propaganda and Taiphoon was a total failure due to some climatic conditions beyond its control.
In War Time- FOG OF WAR (FOW) often clouds judgement and it is better for the 30th Panzer to get stuck on the door step of Maikop than reaching it successfully and rendering the game a - pseudo simulation based on WW2 forces.
Intel is never 100% in real, even with Enigma cracked, the Allied forces faced a lot of problems post September 1944, the first 3 months they swept away all German forces, the Germans suffered some 0.5 Million casualties in a little over 3 months and also lost over 2000 Tanks and 2000 Planes but the Allies struggled to maintain even 1/10th of that initial pace after September 1944. Logistics had caught up with their advance guards and coupled with better leadership in place in the German forces, the allies nearly sat on their A** for the next 3 months. Even after re-starting the advance post 'Battle of Bulge' the advance never reached the initial pace or even threatened to reach it.

Wasn't talking about the success of the operations or propaganda but trucks and the rate of supply with the Red Ball Express being the possibly best example of extreme logistics flow with trucks while Taifun included some abysmal deficiencies in the same area (and yes weather was a factor as well as lack of infrastructure to support them). According to Guderian's side of the story a large majority of the supply bottleneck wasn't at the outskirts of Moscow but rather in Poland and the lack of motorization after 6 months of combat up-front meant the mobility of the Heer forces was greatly affected at critical moments (most had to be used to shuffle supplies, especially tracked units while the roads were unserviceable). Locally commandeered transport resources (often in the form of horses and even slave-labor) was used to move supplies which wasn't really the case with the Red Ball Express. But yes, I don't oppose the idea that bad infrastructure and abysmal weatherconditions should limit the positive effects on having trucks, but then again there's few things short of rail that aren't greatly hampered by poor ground conditions.

 

[Alex_brunius]

@Alex_brunius

As one of the few people advocating a logistics based game since HOI2 & 3,
What is your take on the "SPIRAL" and how do you show it?
Say you have X trucks to supply Y divisions on the offensive but you need, A1 amount of Trucks to supply X trucks and A2 amount of Trucks to supply A1 and so on.
Where X>A1>A2>....>An.

I always was a strong advocate of more diminishing returns since it models reality so well.

Something perhaps per supply "theatre" or what you want to call it, where you show maximum possible trucks you can assign and the efficiency of supplyflow, say:

Logistics: 1000/2000 trucks = 10/20 fuelcost per day = +75% supplyflow efficiency (100%max), and you can redistribute with simple sliders and see some further info like truck losses to enemy logistical/strategical attacks and or temporary averaged weather effects.

Ideally also some inertia built in so sliders don't instantly reach the target value, but it takes some time for it to happen ( I always wanted to see more of that for all sliders to promote long term planning ).