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Semi-Lobster

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Currently all East African States (Ethiopia, Adal, Swahili, and Funj as a revolter) are in the African Tech Group, which may make sense... because they are in Africa and we can all agree technological advancement was not very quick on the continent but the African tech group is hardly representative of the capabilities of East Africa at all, especially in the 15th and 16th centuries. The most notable problem is that the African tech group can't build cavalry, which for Ethiopia and Adal is ridiculous, both armies heavily used Cavalry in their campaigns against each other in the 16th century and even at the start of the game, Dawit I led a cavalry campaign of raids and attacks against the Mamlukes in the 1390s defeating multiple Mamluk garrisons. Dawit I DIED when he was kicked in the head by his horse. By the time the Portuguese arrived in the early 16th century Adal had access to matchlock muskets which they used effectively against the Ethiopians at the Battle of Shimbra Kure (not to be confused with the battle of Wofla where the Adalese Musketeers were mercenaries).
 
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The problem is there's not an efficient way of modelling the Europeans' superiority in organisation that allowed them to defeat non-european powers with ease. In the Opium War, the Chinese were armed with Krupp artillery and modern rifles, but fell like a paper tiger to the British because of superior organisational skill.
 

Keinwyn

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The problem is there's not an efficient way of modelling the Europeans' superiority in organisation that allowed them to defeat non-european powers with ease. In the Opium War, the Chinese were armed with Krupp artillery and modern rifles, but fell like a paper tiger to the British because of superior organisational skill.

I believe you are thinking of discipline? :p

I know it is not that simple but tbh a more fluid and accurate tech system wouldn't be hard to create.
 

DominusNovus

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so are you suggesting Paradox makes a whole new tech group/modifies an existing tech group (and calls it a new tech group) for just two countries?

They made one for one country, the Ottomans.

Personally, I think Ethiopia should be in the muslim tech group.
 

jdrou

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unmerged(111702)

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It's simple

Ethiopia should be in the Muslim tech group. We've been saying that for ages. North East Africa was very much tied to the Arabic world in terms of culture, religion, and language. Ethiopia was also a reasonably powerful state during this period. The game treats the entirety of sub-saharan africa as being basically west/south africa. East africa was/is very different.

I don't think it would be worth it for Paradox to completely revamp the way Africa is handled in this game(who plays a sub-saharan African country?), but as an easy fix Ethipoia should definitely be changed to the Muslim tech group. As for Swahili and Adal.... That's a tougher call, but they should probably be left as is.
 

mudcrabmerchant

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On the subject of Ethiopia, shouldn't it have a non-tribal government as well? IIRC, they've had kings/emperors for over a thousand years, and were certainly not led by a chief. Nor did they have a severe organizational disadvantage compared to their neighbors, which giving them a tribal government while giving Adal and Yemen Sultanates implies.
 

Semi-Lobster

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It's simple

Ethiopia should be in the Muslim tech group. We've been saying that for ages. North East Africa was very much tied to the Arabic world in terms of culture, religion, and language. Ethiopia was also a reasonably powerful state during this period. The game treats the entirety of sub-saharan africa as being basically west/south africa. East africa was/is very different.

I don't think it would be worth it for Paradox to completely revamp the way Africa is handled in this game(who plays a sub-saharan African country?), but as an easy fix Ethipoia should definitely be changed to the Muslim tech group. As for Swahili and Adal.... That's a tougher call, but they should probably be left as is.

Adal nearly defeated Ethiopia in the 16th Century if it weren't for the Portugese. The Somalis operated the same style of cavalry as the Ethiopians, the same type of hill forts as the Ethiopians and had access to muskets BEFORE the Ethiopians.

mudcrabmerchant said:
On the subject of Ethiopia, shouldn't it have a non-tribal government as well? IIRC, they've had kings/emperors for over a thousand years, and were certainly not led by a chief. Nor did they have a severe organizational disadvantage compared to their neighbors, which giving them a tribal government while giving Adal and Yemen Sultanates implies.

Ethiopia was pretty damn fractured during the entire time period. Just read about the Zemene Mesafint it was complete chaos. And during the 14th and 15th century, there were independent 'vassals' of Ethiopia like Kaffa, Janjero, Semien, Ifat etc. etc.
 

BritNavFan

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It doesn't represent West Africa well either. Ideally, there would be three African tech groups: West African, East African, and Central/South African.

You only need one new tech group to do this. "Sub Saharan" can be used for the southern countries (Kongo, Loango, Mutapa), and the eastern countries can be placed in the Indian tech group (works well for the Swahili, who were one end of an ocean-going trade with India, and OK for Ethiopia/Adal, who started the period more militarily advanced than most places in Africa but weren't on a par with the Mamelukes, Ottomans, or Omanis.) Then giving the West Africans their own tech group also lets them share a map amongst themselves, which works out very nicely.

Most of the West African states should get cavalry: arguably all of them because there's no way I can think of to mod in tse tse flies' effect on horses. (The West African states without cavalry weren't at a disadvantage because the others couldn't apply their cavalry against them.) But that can be handled, if so desired, through unit_type, since that's now a separate thing from tech group.

But all of the African states should get forts. (Yes, their forts wouldn't have stood up to European armies in Europe, but Europe could only support expeditionary forces in Africa or the New World, not full fledged armies, and the forts could obstruct those.)

Adal nearly defeated Ethiopia in the 16th Century if it weren't for the Portugese. The Somalis operated the same style of cavalry as the Ethiopians, the same type of hill forts as the Ethiopians and had access to muskets BEFORE the Ethiopians.

The reason the Somalis etc. attacked them was the Portuguese. The Portuguese spent the period 1510-20 attacking Muslim ports all the way along the east coast of Africa, and then in the 1520's there's an unprecedented coalition of small Muslim states attacking Christian Ethiopia? Not a coincidence.

While the Ethiopians received help from the Portuguese, Ahmad Gran had received help from the Ottomans so that's a wash.

Ethiopia was pretty damn fractured during the entire time period. Just read about the Zemene Mesafint it was complete chaos. And during the 14th and 15th century, there were independent 'vassals' of Ethiopia like Kaffa, Janjero, Semien, Ifat etc. etc.
Pretty much like France at the start of the game then :p (And far less fractured than the HRE!) And yes, "Feudal Monarchy" describes Ethiopia at the time quite well, I think.

"Adal" in game is an abstraction. At any given time there were several small Muslim stats in that area, but the only one that was both large (we have two provinces! TWO!) and longlived was Adal, so Paradox made that into a tag and used it to represent the others. But really there were a ton of one-province (or less) minors in the area. Not counting the period after 1550. :wacko:
 

Trin Tragula

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You only need one new tech group to do this. "Sub Saharan" can be used for the southern countries (Kongo, Loango, Mutapa), and the eastern countries can be placed in the Indian tech group (works well for the Swahili, who were one end of an ocean-going trade with India, and OK for Ethiopia/Adal, who started the period more militarily advanced than most places in Africa but weren't on a par with the Mamelukes, Ottomans, or Omanis.) Then giving the West Africans their own tech group also lets them share a map amongst themselves, which works out very nicely.

This era saw some substantial trade between Indian and Ethiopia/Somalia as well so it kind of makes sense that way as well. Military slaves was the foremost commodity (see the life of Malik Ambar or check up on the Sidhis in general for a famous example) so therefore sharing advisors for instance might not be such a bad idea as it might seem either (if I'm not mistaken this would be another result of sharing tech groups). Advisors moving in the other direction is possibly more of a stretch though.
Interesting thread though, I think I'm going to try something like this in my mod. :)

I wonder if one could argue for an indian ocean tech group (which would also include the states of the arabian peninsula)...
 
Last edited:

unmerged(37753)

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I feel they could get away with just a single tech group. Maybe give them a .4 techrate... But the less advance countries should just be very narrow-minded, Serfdom and decentralized which would slow down their tech, while the more advance countries like Eithopia could be more innovative.

I don't think it would be worth it for Paradox to completely revamp the way Africa is handled in this game(who plays a sub-saharan African country?),

The problem is that the Sub Saharan countries are broken and not really worth playing, so people just pick them for a challenge. If Africa was improved more people would start playing African nations
 

AlHasanAlbaghdadi

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The simplest and most realistic option would be to add a base discipline to every tech group in the game

Since europeans defeated other nations with their superior organisation, we can use discipline for that and add a slowly decaying discipline for non-europeans, europeans should have a lower discipline at the start but should slowly go up over time, the tech group difference should be reduced and a second decision like westernization should be also created but it doesnt change the country completly, I mean there should be some "military modernization" decision for example BEFORE westernization which gives fairly modern unit types but doesnt change the discipline much
 

6354201

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You only need one new tech group to do this. "Sub Saharan" can be used for the southern countries (Kongo, Loango, Mutapa), and the eastern countries can be placed in the Indian tech group (works well for the Swahili, who were one end of an ocean-going trade with India, and OK for Ethiopia/Adal, who started the period more militarily advanced than most places in Africa but weren't on a par with the Mamelukes, Ottomans, or Omanis.) Then giving the West Africans their own tech group also lets them share a map amongst themselves, which works out very nicely.

Most of the West African states should get cavalry: arguably all of them because there's no way I can think of to mod in tse tse flies' effect on horses. (The West African states without cavalry weren't at a disadvantage because the others couldn't apply their cavalry against them.) But that can be handled, if so desired, through unit_type, since that's now a separate thing from tech group.

You're right, that would be a very elegant solution, and it would require a lot less work.
 

Ashantai

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Well, the units themselves take into account organisation as well as arms. Thus, by the end European units are better than any rivals, even if they are at the same tech level!
 

sprites

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giving them indian tech group might be acceptable , but what to do with their units? give them muslim ones (not really better , but that would prevent elephants units and such ... )
 

jdrou

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The biggest problem with moving countries to another existing tech group is probably province knowledge. Do we want them to gain knowledge of all the muslim- or indian-known provinces in 50 years? There's also the matter of techspeed balance with their neighbors though. Should they really have 2 or more times the techspeed? The units are more a matter of flavor.
 

sprites

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Another problem would be , moving swahili into indian group , thy would be able to steamroll and keep Mutapa much easier , having forts from the start to keep rebels from insta-occupying the provinces and collapsing the country when the TSC comes ...