Questions about Diplomacy

[unmerged(46341)]

I have a few questions about Diplomacy that I have not been able to find anywhere. So here we go:

1. Why so few provinces? I've seen glimpses of the map, and it's truly tiny. Heck, Spain is but one province. It also seems to only cover Europe, in a time period where the entire world certainly mattered.

2. Real Time, or Turn Based?

3. Will this be like EU, in that many future spinoffs will be based on it's engine? Or would, say, a hypothetical HoI3 recieve a new engine? Or use the EU engine?

 

[David E. Cohen]

1. Because this is a game on a grand strategic scale, put together by its designer to be on the approximate scale of chess, and to evoke, not simulate Pre WWI Great Power politics in Europe.

2. The board game is turn-based (with simultaneous adjudication), with discussions occurring in real-time (time limits between turns) so there is
time pressure.

3. I have no idea.

I have a few questions about Diplomacy that I have not been able to find anywhere. So here we go:

1. Why so few provinces? I've seen glimpses of the map, and it's truly tiny. Heck, Spain is but one province. It also seems to only cover Europe, in a time period where the entire world certainly mattered.

2. Real Time, or Turn Based?

3. Will this be like EU, in that many future spinoffs will be based on it's engine? Or would, say, a hypothetical HoI3 recieve a new engine? Or use the EU engine?

 

[unmerged(2966)]

I have a few questions about Diplomacy that I have not been able to find anywhere. So here we go:

1. Why so few provinces? I've seen glimpses of the map, and it's truly tiny. Heck, Spain is but one province. It also seems to only cover Europe, in a time period where the entire world certainly mattered.

2. Real Time, or Turn Based?

3. Will this be like EU, in that many future spinoffs will be based on it's engine? Or would, say, a hypothetical HoI3 recieve a new engine? Or use the EU engine?

1. Because the game is an old board game.

3. I believe Paradox has said they intend to use the 3d engine for future games.

 

[unmerged(26876)]

I have a few questions about Diplomacy that I have not been able to find anywhere. So here we go:

....
3. Will this be like EU, in that many future spinoffs will be based on it's engine? Or would, say, a hypothetical HoI3 recieve a new engine? Or use the EU engine?

Gelatinous Cube? From the I.G. boards? Hi!

If I recall correctly Paradox said that the EU engine had lived a good life but it was time to move on.

 

[Jos Theelen]

What can we expect from the AI?

It seems to me that on a tactical level, the AI is superior. It can calculate several turns ahead, which is impossible for a human. However on strategical and diplomatic level, it is probably not so good. Especially cheating and breaking promises is difficult for machines, I think.

 

[Drakken]

What can we expect from the AI?

It seems to me that on a tactical level, the AI is superior. It can calculate several turns ahead, which is impossible for a human. However on strategical and diplomatic level, it is probably not so good. Especially cheating and breaking promises is difficult for machines, I think.

Why not? Even a chess program's AI is capable of playing lesser moves to simulate a lower level of game play. The AI is certainly capable of calculing two type of tactical moves: one best move if it respects its alliances, and one absolute best if he doesn't.

D.

 

[Jos Theelen]

Why not? Even a chess program's AI is capable of playing lesser moves to simulate a lower level of game play. The AI is certainly capable of calculing two type of tactical moves: one best move if it respects its alliances, and one absolute best if he doesn't.

D.

True. But the AI has no memory (I think). That means that for an AI or human it is difficult to build a reputation, because the others should have some memory. You can say the same about trust.
Another example is an ultimatum. A machine will accept an ultimatum, when it has some advantages from it. Humans tend to reject an ultimatum more often.

 

[unmerged(46341)]

Alright, all of this really begs another question: I very much enjoy Hearts of Iron II, and all of the EU-based games. Indeed, I daresay I'd prefer them over a board game. Doesn't mean I won't try out Diplomacy (It's a paradox game, after all), but what I am really going to be looking forward to are more games on the scale of EU, Vicky, and HoI2.

Will this engine be capable of making games on that scale?

 

[gzav]

Will this engine be capable of making games on that scale?

Wait and see . As of now, no game has been announced after Diplomacy, so who knows what direction Paradox will take after its release.

 

[unmerged(46341)]

Wait and see . As of now, no game has been announced after Diplomacy, so who knows what direction Paradox will take after its release.

*whines* But I don't wanna!

Alright, thanks for all the answers people. I'm looking forward to diplomacy, but I just don't think it'll be able to satisfy the craving for massive-scale games. Ye people have spoiled us.

 

[unmerged(26876)]

Alright, all of this really begs another question: ....

Will this engine be capable of making games on that scale?

We don't know yet but I *suspect* the maps will be moddable as one of the consultants Paradox brought in is a Variant designer.
Variants have also been discussed and played here.

But - try playing the standard game befor you wish for Diplomacy on a massive scale.
It can be a VERY interesting game just as it is.
After the first time you play England and become involved in the discussions (with France and Germany) over who gets Belgium you will wonder how anyone could possibly play a larger variant and have the time !

 

[unmerged(4271)]

Although completely unrelated to the game Paradox is developing, the long defunct gaming company that I worked with had developed a "memory system" for the AI in our Diplomacy prototype. It was very complex and a real memory-hog, and only worked if players wanted it to work. That is, you had a "profile" assigned to your user name. So long as you played as the same user your computer opponent would, over time, become better adapted toward your style of play. While you could always cheat by using new usernames each time, the hope was that players would want this kind of challenge, and would keep playing under the same name.

So, I know it can be done, but this was part of the AI architecture which we had built that was never perfected (Avalon Hill was sold before a contract was agreed upon ) and which, left in its prototype stage, I felt had some potential bugs to work out. The chief programmer, I am sure, disagreed!

 

[David E. Cohen]

What can we expect from the AI?

It seems to me that on a tactical level, the AI is superior. It can calculate several turns ahead, which is impossible for a human. However on strategical and diplomatic level, it is probably not so good. Especially cheating and breaking promises is difficult for machines, I think.

Hmmm. Some human players can calculate multiple turns ahead tactically, using the human equivalent of pruning their decision trees of unlikely outcomes. I know this is true because sometimes I do it myself.

 

[unmerged(46341)]

Although completely unrelated to the game Paradox is developing, the long defunct gaming company that I worked with had developed a "memory system" for the AI in our Diplomacy prototype. It was very complex and a real memory-hog, and only worked if players wanted it to work. That is, you had a "profile" assigned to your user name. So long as you played as the same user your computer opponent would, over time, become better adapted toward your style of play. While you could always cheat by using new usernames each time, the hope was that players would want this kind of challenge, and would keep playing under the same name.

So, I know it can be done, but this was part of the AI architecture which we had built that was never perfected (Avalon Hill was sold before a contract was agreed upon ) and which, left in its prototype stage, I felt had some potential bugs to work out. The chief programmer, I am sure, disagreed!

Any chance of seeing this in future Paradox games?

 

[InnocentIII]

Wait and see . As of now, no game has been announced after Diplomacy, so who knows what direction Paradox will take after its release.

Well, rumor was that Paradox bought up all the rights to EU.

I'm guessing Johan did not do that so he could sit them in a dark room and scowl at them.

 

[gzav]

Well, rumor was that Paradox bought up all the rights to EU.

I'm guessing Johan did not do that so he could sit them in a dark room and scowl at them.

Who knows with Swedes...

 

[Jos Theelen]

Hmmm. Some human players can calculate multiple turns ahead tactically, using the human equivalent of pruning their decision trees of unlikely outcomes. I know this is true because sometimes I do it myself.

True. But like you wrote, you have to prune. It is impossible to think about all the possible moves, when you are looking 3 or 4 years ahead. But for an AI that isn't so difficult, it is just a question of time.

 

[David E. Cohen]

True. But like you wrote, you have to prune. It is impossible to think about all the possible moves, when you are looking 3 or 4 years ahead. But for an AI that isn't so difficult, it is just a question of time.

Yeah, but who cares. Unlike chess, the best move isn't always the best move.

 

[unmerged(34319)]

Tactical Play

If you try to play with people and just do tacticial moves then you will lose.
The best tactical players in the hobby are killed every weekend around the world because they occassionally forget that the name of the game is Diplomacy.

Thinking ahead 2-4 moves tactically is useful, beyond that you generally are wasting your time. The real key is to think strategically and psychologically/diplomatically ahead and that can be very far ahead indeed.

So a machine/AI can spin all the tactical possibilities it wants and if it a true master end all solution to AI it will conlcude that at the end of all possibilities it will always lose because it has no concept of what will make people attack.

Edi

 

[David E. Cohen]

If you try to play with people and just do tacticial moves then you will lose.
The best tactical players in the hobby are killed every weekend around the world because they occassionally forget that the name of the game is Diplomacy.

Yup.