Questions about and criticism of vassal free cities

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fodazd

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Feb 21, 2018
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Hello.

I recently did some experiments with releasing cities as vassals. If I build a library or a shrine in a city before releasing it as a vassal, it makes no difference for the research or mana I get as vassal income. Do city structures just not count when it comes to the income I get from vassals? Is that why I can't see what structures are present in my vassal cities? What is the point of production for vassal cities if they can't give it to me and it also makes no difference for them?

Related to the first point: If I have a lot of gold and one of my vassal cities is about to come under siege, it would be really nice if I could use my gold to rushbuy better walls or other defensive structures for them like I can for my own cities, because at least walls actually do something for vassal cities in this case. Of course it would be even better if city structures actually contributed to vassal income, and I could also rushbuy other buildings for them.

Another thing that does not make much sense to me is how vassal free cities interact with ancient wonders. If I have cleared an ancient wonder, I apparently can't get my vassals to annex it. If I want their bonus, I have to instead build a separate outpost just to annex that wonder, which feels weird when my vassal is right next to it. However, even if I first annex the wonder and *then* release the city as a vassal, I don't get the imperium income for it anymore. Shouldn't I at least get the same cut of imperium that I get for gold/mana/research?


Why is your opinion on this? Do you agree that the way vassal free cities currently work with regards to city structures and ancient wonders is a bit weird? Or do you not see these things as problems?
 
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Hello.

I recently did some experiments with releasing cities as vassals. If I build a library or a shrine in a city before releasing it as a vassal, it makes no difference for the research or mana I get as vassal income. Do city structures just not count when it comes to the income I get from vassals?

That's actually a fair point. It would mean deeper strategical choices when it would matter. Maybe not for the full 100% of resources, but it should have some impact. Otherwise the structures are simply lost! F.E. What if you made a city deeply invested in Mana, it would only make common sense when once vassalized, the vassal would indeed make heftier tributes concerning Mana. Right now there is no real difference between a free city and a vassal, except that the vassal is already yours. I would endorse the idea that vassals actually mean more to the player than the simple tribute of a free city. And changing tribute according to the structures built would be a great way of doing it.

Related to the first point: If I have a lot of gold and one of my vassal cities is about to come under siege, it would be really nice if I could use my gold to rushbuy better walls or other defensive structures for them like I can for my own cities, because at least walls actually do something for vassal cities in this case. Of course it would be even better if city structures actually contributed to vassal income, and I could also rushbuy other buildings for them.

I think vassals should make their own decisions, just as your allies do. You can always buy units from the Rally of Lieges to support their cause. If suddenly magically a complete defensive structure would appear, that would be weird. Imagine it happening to you.

Another thing that does not make much sense to me is how vassal free cities interact with ancient wonders. If I have cleared an ancient wonder, I apparently can't get my vassals to annex it. If I want their bonus, I have to instead build a separate outpost just to annex that wonder, which feels weird when my vassal is right next to it.
Vassals can't annex it, because the structure is purely ment for Factions that can benefit from the structure. I see no point for the vassal to have the structure. Because they are no 'player'.
 
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I do not see these things as problems. The game is trying to reduce micromanagement by limiting number of cities, but building structures and then releasing own city as vassal is a step in opposite direction. I am glad it is not optimal to do.
 
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I do not see these things as problems. The game is trying to reduce micromanagement by limiting number of cities, but building structures and then releasing own city as vassal is a step in opposite direction. I am glad it is not optimal to do.

Why is it in an opposite direction when the buildings you built in said city would actually have some impact concerning the tribute they provide?
 
I think vassals should make their own decisions, just as your allies do. You can always buy units from the Rally of Lieges to support their cause. If suddenly magically a complete defensive structure would appear, that would be weird. Imagine it happening to you.

That's actually a great point, I haven't thought of that. Maybe I shouldn't immediately recruit all the units I can for myself, but keep some rally points in reserve so I can support my vassals when I need to.


Vassals can't annex it, because the structure is purely ment for Factions that can benefit from the structure. I see no point for the vassal to have the structure. Because they are no 'player'.

In my opinion it would be better if vassal cities could annex them, and just give a cut of the imperium as well as other bonuses to me. If vassals really aren't meant to have them, then of course I can keep building additional outposts for them, but doing it this way just seems strange to me. How does having a bunch of Outposts just for wonders lead to better gameplay than letting them be annexed by vassals, especially if the vassal is right next to it?


I do not see these things as problems. The game is trying to reduce micromanagement by limiting number of cities, but building structures and then releasing own city as vassal is a step in opposite direction. I am glad it is not optimal to do.

That's a fair point. For me personally, managing my cities is not a big problem, so I would prefer if city structures in vassal cities actually mattered, but I can see how that would lead to additional micro if you plan to release your cities as vassals.
 
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Vassals being able to annex wonders (and giving some imperium) would indeed be a great addition.

Another thing I would like is to be able to buy provinces from vassals, or even other rulers. Sometimes the vassals snake into my empire and the only way to remove those ugly borders is to annex them and fix it yourself. A vassal that has enough loyalty for being annexed should also have a mechanics for ceding a border province in exchange for gold or imperium.
 
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That's actually a great point, I haven't thought of that. Maybe I shouldn't immediately recruit all the units I can for myself, but keep some rally points in reserve so I can support my vassals when I need to.

I keep points in reserve and with ' track enemy movement' i'm mostly just in time. :D
 
I definitely do agree with wanting to be able to do more with vassals that have wonders in them. It's not like -they- get to do anything with them, so why do they have to just be stuck there contributing nothing to anyone?
 
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Vassals can't annex it, because the structure is purely ment for Factions that can benefit from the structure. I see no point for the vassal to have the structure. Because they are no 'player'.
Does it add Ancient Wonder units to Rally of Lieges if your vassal have the wonder? (I thought it does this but I don't know and didn't test it)
 
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Does it add Ancient Wonder units to Rally of Lieges if your vassal have the wonder? (I thought it does this but I don't know and didn't test it)

That's a good question. I think it does?
If you cleared the Wonder it surely does. I do assume the owner of the Wonder always gets the units.
 
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That's a good question. I think it does, because you yourself had to clear it.

I tested this a while ago and they unfortunately did not supply the wonder unit for the rally of the lieges. This was quite a while ago though.

That said I think vassals work wonderfully at the moment, using rally of the lieges you can keep them defended and buff their attacks if you like. Taking the bannerlords culture trait allows you to massively buff them up.

It would be nice if their income was modified based on the structures they had but this isn't a big problem. Now that they can slowly tier themselves up they'll get better over time and give you more tribute as they grow.
 
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I wish vassals could throw more stacks at the targets assigned or have better defense stacks depending on vassalage level. It is a chore having to baby their cities with my rallies.
 
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I wish vassals could throw more stacks at the targets assigned or have better defense stacks depending on vassalage level. It is a chore having to baby their cities with my rallies.

It's true that vassals keep being a concern. You don't want to lose them but have to support them always, because they can't do it well on their own.
The margin between being too powerful and too weak is small i feel.
 
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Vassals being too weak vs AI empires means vassals are too powerful in normal games (because AI empires don't attack your vassals if not at war with you) and almost useless in games with preset teams (because you are at permanent war with every AI empire). As always in aow series diplomacy makes game trivial.
 
Vassals being too weak vs AI empires means vassals are too powerful in normal games (because AI empires don't attack your vassals if not at war with you) and almost useless in games with preset teams (because you are at permanent war with every AI empire). As always in aow series diplomacy makes game trivial.
Emmm ... what is a normal game and how being too weak vs AI empires makes vassals too powerful in normal games. So vassals being weak vs AI empires isn't a normal game?
You are speaking in riddles my dude. xD
 
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Emmm ... what is a normal game and how being too weak vs AI empires makes vassals too powerful in normal games. So vassals being weak vs AI empires isn't a normal game?
You are speaking in riddles my dude. xD
Normal game is when diplomacy is enabled. Vassals can be easily captured by AI, but it does not happen in normal game because human player can manipulate AI via diplomacy and avoid war. I recently played a normal game where I didn't build any units after turn 30, I had 96 rally of liege points on turn 100. Usually I play non-normal games and then my vassals are captured l, I barely have any unless they are inside my territory.
 
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I agree that being able to exchange provinces with vassals would also be a good addition.

Another thing I noticed that is kind of annoying when it comes to vassal cities is teleporters. I would really like to be able to tell my vassals to build a teleporter, and then be able to use it in order to move my armies to them quickly when necessary.
 
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Normal game is when diplomacy is enabled. Vassals can be easily captured by AI, but it does not happen in normal game because human player can manipulate AI via diplomacy and avoid war. I recently played a normal game where I didn't build any units after turn 30, I had 96 rally of liege points on turn 100. Usually I play non-normal games and then my vassals are captured l, I barely have any unless they are inside my territory.
Roger.
I agree about AI players being easily manipulated, but this is a tangential problem to vassals. So in other words solving one of the problems does not automatically solves the other altho both are connected and will add on top of each other.
Same thing about new change to Rally, imo Triumph went overboard with how it prioritizes high tier units.

I agree that being able to exchange provinces with vassals would also be a good addition.

Another thing I noticed that is kind of annoying when it comes to vassal cities is teleporters. I would really like to be able to tell my vassals to build a teleporter, and then be able to use it in order to move my armies to them quickly when necessary.
That would only be fair if infestations start targeting those teleporters, atm infestations are ignoring vassals completely.
 
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I recently ran into another situation where the fact that vassals cannot annex wonders (or use them) is pretty frustrating: The wonder is completely surrounded by vassal provinces. As far as I can see, it is literally impossible to annex the wonder without integrating that vassal. This is stupid.

lair_of_silk_inaccessible.png
 
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