Question.

[klisa89]

I wonder why all ask questions about the same things as the war was concerned when he had a better units how many units of tanks here whether this or that
My opinion is that the key thing in any war intelligence and propaganda
you better have a notice about the enemy that will help to make action against him and what better propaganda that might affect the morale of the and many other things I will not go into details now because there are a lot on how to write and discuss course not dispute the fact that the essential and military power and advances in military research, but I think that is the key to any victory is information about the enemy.So plz if u wont comment about this if u think am right or wrong.all the best to paradox!

 

[KiwiNoob]

Those things did play an important part in the war but it's also true that if I have a gun and you don't then all the information and propaganda in the world wont help you much if we get in a fight. Military technology will still be paramount.

There were some initial plans for an espionage system that have been scrapped but it will hopefully be replaced with some other mechanic before launch.

In HOI3 things like enigma and the bombe were represented by Encryption/Decryption techs that affected combat efficiency. Can't say for certain but that will probably be the case in HOI4 as well.

 

[Nicolas I]

Very well thought thread title...

I think espionage is too frequently overrated, maybe because it makes good stories like how I won the war alone against all odds and mad/dangerous/sadistic vilains !

Don't forget the fact that you often gather as much false/misleading information than true/useful and it's very difficult to know for sure which is good and which is bad. Also, many informations you get are too late to act upon, that is if you happen to have the means to act timely and decisively. That being said, it's when there is a large gap between the espionage capacity and effectiveness of the two sides that it can make some difference. Like the Allies breaking the German and Japanese codes. But even if you have the best information, sticks and stones will still break you bones, that is to say the resources and industrial capacity is the major factor influencing the outcome of war.

Same could be said about propaganda. Yes it will help raise or at least keep the morale of your troops and population for a time, but when it becomes clear to even the most gullible people that you are retreating on all fronts and that bombs are raining daily, your lies will not work anymore, they will become counterproductive and you will lose all your remaining credibility.

 

[klisa89]

Those things did play an important part in the war but it's also true that if I have a gun and you don't then all the information and propaganda in the world wont help you much if we get in a fight. Military technology will still be paramount.

There were some initial plans for an espionage system that have been scrapped but it will hopefully be replaced with some other mechanic before launch.

In HOI3 things like enigma and the bombe were represented by Encryption/Decryption techs that affected combat efficiency. Can't say for certain but that will probably be the case in HOI4 as well.

I agree that you and asks u what if I do not allow us to enter into a conflict that i start will propagate destabilize your country weaken your economy with espionage and information they possess about you weaken your industrial and military power how will you enter into a military conflict with me.so i think that espionage propaganda and all kind of intelligence is crucial for war.But also the research and millitary tech.

 

[klisa89]

Nicolas
Very agree with you and I'm glad you understand what I want to express also think it would be very interesting was that during the game you collect information about the enemy and make it before the offensive and that you can collect the wrong information and that it's costing offensive penetration and even the war for example I like Germany want to invade Poland's.Spy gather information on the military might of the political situation the status of forces etc but Poland learned the fact of my spies within their own country does not prevent my spies to operate inland processing rather than giving them to come up with false information of course I will think that they are true and make offensive by it but in fact welcomed surprise me that were put to me and I due to lack of information, I could not have foreseen and it is possible to experience failure and many other things decimation of the army, etc. I think this would be very interesting to have the possibility of such tactics in HOI4

 

[KiwiNoob]

That was close to what the pre-alpha espionage system aimed to mimic in some form but as mentioned - that's been scrapped so don't expect anything like that in release.

You will still have the option of supporting political parties and revolts in other countries so you can use that as a means to destabilize countries and either prevent them being in a state to enter the war or even getting them to join on your side.

It will probably be very difficult to achieve with a major country but small and medium should be achievable.

 

[Big Nev]

To the OP's "Question", I would answer "Midway".

I'll ask anyone who want's to say intelligence isn't important to review what the USA/USN managed to find out about the impending attack and, especially, what the IJN failed to find out about the USN response. Despite considerable effort hampered by bad luck and a host of other things.

Now ask yourselves if the USN didn't have ample warning that it was coming, would Midway have been taken?

You betcha!

And if the IJN had discovered that the US carriers had, actually, left Pearl Harbor, how many there were and where they were (as their scouting arrangements almost certainly would have, if they had worked according to design) just how vastly different the battle would have been.

Now ask yourself about D-Day and why the majority of German defenders were stationed around Calais for days after the start.

Intelligence & espionage is very very important.

And even on the most basic level. If I don't have a gun, but I know you have, I'm not going to pick a fight with you am I?

No way.

I'm going to sneak-up behind you with a 3 foot length of lead pipe/baseball bat/mêlée weapon of choice.

Or go and get a better one.

Know thine enemy

 

[cacti]

To the OP's "Question", I would answer "Midway".

I'll ask anyone who want's to say intelligence isn't important to review what the USA/USN managed to find out about the impending attack and, especially, what the IJN failed to find out about the USN response. Despite considerable effort hampered by bad luck and a host of other things.

Now ask yourselves if the USN didn't have ample warning that it was coming, would Midway have been taken?

You betcha!

And if the IJN had discovered that the US carriers had, actually, left Pearl Harbor, how many there were and where they were (as their scouting arrangements almost certainly would have, if they had worked according to design) just how vastly different the battle would have been.

Now ask yourself about D-Day and why the majority of German defenders were stationed around Calais for days after the start.

Intelligence & espionage is very very important.

And even on the most basic level. If I don't have a gun, but I know you have, I'm not going to pick a fight with you am I?

No way.

I'm going to sneak-up behind you with a 3 foot length of lead pipe/baseball bat/mêlée weapon of choice.

Or go and get a better one.

Know thine enemy

This. I will speak bluntly and probably piss some people off. Anybody who thinks that intel and espionage is overrated has absolutely no clue how modern warfare is conducted or won. Without intel, you don't know a number of things...

1) where the enemy is
2) where they are going
3) what their obj is
4) what their follow on obj could be
5) what their supply status is
6) where their supplys are
7) the morale of their units
8) if any key unit commanders are vulnerable to subversion techniques

Intel is what sets up the battle plan going forward. Think of intel like the foundation to your house. If you just take some plywood and slap it on the ground in a big old box shape and call it a house, is it a house? Sure you can sleep in it, but will it withstand high winds, snow and rain? Probably not for a prolonged period because if I come up and push on it hard enough (wind) I am moving it anywhere I want. If you have good intel, you have a the good beginings of a foundation for your war machine. The next thing you do is add in your supplies and your foundaiton is complete. Next thing you do is add in your man power to build your house and you are good to go.

 

[Nicolas I]

Intelligence and espionage are not exactly the same. You can gather information many other ways than espionage and any army would try to gather useful information to gain insight.

Also, it's easy to cherry pick a few historical exemples that did work, but there are many others exemple where it didn't work. Like UK sending many spies in France only for them to fall in the hands of german counter-espionage because their network was caught, and you can find many other exemples of failed operations (Marketgarden?). What I did say is that when there is a large gap between the espionage capacity and effectiveness of the two sides that it can make some difference. If that's not the case, you sometimes win and the enemy sometimes win and each boast about these victories.

Don't get me wrong, as you seem to have, I never said intelligence was not important, it was important. I said it's not the single most important factor in the course of the war overall. Material factors, industrial capacity, resources, manpower are essential. These are the foundations, without them the best intelligence/espionnage will not be very useful. Good intel will help you use the forces you have the best possible way and that's important in itself, but it will not change the forces you have, there's a limit to the power of the will.

 

[cacti]

es·pi·o·nage
ˈespēəˌnäZH/
noun
noun: espionage
the practice of spying or of using spies, typically by governments to obtain political and military information.

espionage is the act of gather intelligence....OF COURSE there are failures, and those are the ones you hear about the most. Most successful operations you hear about also. But on a daily basis allied and axis operators worked constantly to gather intel to head off military operations conducted by the other side. Try playing any RTS where the fog of war is perpetually enabled. By that I mean you never ever reveal any portion of the map, you never know where the enemy units are.

Then get back to me and tell me how futile or over rated espionage is.

 

[Nicolas I]

Please, don't pretend I said espionage is futile when I precisely said it was quite important, though not the single most important factor in the war.

Your definition of espionage is OK, but does not prove it's the same as intelligence as a process. The fact that spies do gather "intelligence" may be misleading.

To understand the difference between military intelligence and espionage (which is a part of the intelligence process) read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intelligence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage

I did play games with fog of war. For exemple in Gary Grigsby's War in the East you have to make reconnaissance flights to (partially) lift the fog of war and see where enemy units are and have an approximation of its forces. The game also has the concept of reconnaissance in force. No spies are involved (you rarely have spies close to the whole enemy the frontline, most would be catched quickly), but it's intelligence gathering and part of the whole intelligence process. And it is indeed useful and valuable to make informed decisions at the tactical and strategic level.

You could also read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconnaissance

 

[cacti]

I think espionage is too frequently overrated,

 

[Nicolas I]

Please, go back to your dictionary, overrated does not mean futile.

It means that it's less important that what people think, not that it's not important.

I'm OK that you disagree with what I say, not that you make misleading affirmations about what I said using a quote out of context. Above all when I take the time to qualify/explain what I say.

If you know I have an elite fully operational tank division where you only have a green underequiped infantry battalion, it gives you some options, likely to flee, but that does not make you stronger or able to win. The material factor is more important than having accurate information. It may avoid you to be crushed and be there to fight another day, it doesn't make you win the battle. There may also be cases where good information will help you to win.

But over the entire course of the war, resources, manpower, industry, research and equipments will be more important than spies/intelligence. That doesn't mean that spies/intelligence are negligible, just that they will not win the war by themselves alone.