Question to devs about Eastern European provinces in post-AoW

[Zak Preston]

Lithuania itself can crush Muscovy with livonians ,ryazan as vassals i did it last night it wasn't even hard

Lithuania itself can never crush Muscovy because Muscovites have a good general and attrition will kill Lithuanian troops, while Kyivan and Chernihiv rebels will finish the deal. But an alliance of Poland + Lithuania + Novgorod can deal with mostly common Muscoy + Sweden or Muscovy + Teutonic\Livonic Order (everything depends on rivals setup day 0)

Most were Lithuanian, although they weren't so advanced in technology as Poland was.

How is that? What kind of technology Lithuanians were inferior to Poland?

Ever under gruwald most of the knights on Polish- Lithuanian alliance were from Poland so i fail to see what this have to do with the thread

As wiki and lots of historical sources say, there were around of 20-40k troops from Polish-Lithuanian side, which is quite impressive for those times. It may indicate that manpower reserves (which are directly dependent on total population/wealth) were quite large.

 

[zemuzil]

Lithuania itself can never crush Muscovy because Muscovites have a good general and attrition will kill Lithuanian troops, while Kyivan and Chernihiv rebels will finish the deal. But an alliance of Poland + Lithuania + Novgorod can deal with mostly common Muscoy + Sweden or Muscovy + Teutonic\Livonic Order (everything depends on rivals setup day 0)


It can be done just because you were unlucky or just bad at it doesn't mean its impossible Lithuanian have nearly 40k fl from the start and gets ton of gold for mercs easily and doesn't really need Poland but polish alliance is easy so why not






As wiki and lots of historical sources say, there were around of 20-40k troops from Polish-Lithuanian side, which is quite impressive for those times. It may indicate that manpower reserves (which are directly dependent on total population/wealth) were quite large.

The wiki also says Poland had the most banners there

and the same wiki says Poland had more population than gdol during union with them

 

[Zak Preston]

The wiki also says Poland had the most banners there

and the same wiki says Poland had more population than gdol during union with them

Jan Długosz provided the number of banners, the principal unit of each cavalry: 51 for the knights, 50 for the Poles and 40 for the Lithuanians. However, it is unclear how many men were under each banner. The structure and number of infantry units (pikemen, archers, crossbowmen) and artillery units is unknown.

Both forces were composed of troops from several states and lands, including numerous mercenaries; for example, Bohemian mercenaries fought on each side. The knights also invited guest crusaders. Twenty-two different peoples, mostly Germanic, joined them. Teutonic recruits included soldiers from Westphalia, Frisia, Austria, Swabia and Stettin (Szczecin). Two Hungarian nobles, Nicholas II Garay and Stibor of Stiboricz, brought 200 men for the Knights, but support from Sigismund of Hungary was disappointing. The Polish Crown's troops included seven Ruthenian banners.

Could you please read full article, not only a few suitable paragraphs? =)

 

[Gachr]

Lithuania itself can never crush Muscovy because Muscovites have a good general and attrition will kill Lithuanian troops, while Kyivan and Chernihiv rebels will finish the deal. But an alliance of Poland + Lithuania + Novgorod can deal with mostly common Muscoy + How is that? What kind of technology Lithuanians were inferior to Poland?

In the sources I learned from, Lithuanians were called "barbarians" at that time - they rather used hide armor and axes. You can also see this at the picture of the battle (look at the guys next to the Teutonic soldier on the horse): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Matejko_Battle_of_Grunwald.jpg

 

[oblio-]

In the sources I learned from, Lithuanians were called "barbarians" at that time - they rather used hide armor and axes. You can also see this at the picture of the battle (look at the guys next to the Teutonic soldier on the horse): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Matejko_Battle_of_Grunwald.jpg

Shiny clothes do not a man civilized make.

 

[Zak Preston]

In the sources I learned from, Lithuanians were called "barbarians" at that time - they rather used hide armor and axes. You can also see this at the picture of the battle (look at the guys next to the Teutonic soldier on the horse): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Matejko_Battle_of_Grunwald.jpg

Kyivan Rus (X-XIII centuries) smiths were quite proficient with metalworks (have you heared about bulat steel before?). How did they degrade to barbarians in leather? :blink:

Spoiler

Kyivan Rus bohatyrs\vityazs completely disagree with your sources

Those "barbarians" might have been Zhmud' from EU4 Mazovia (upd: sorry, it was a mistake, Zhmud' were from Samogitia) , they were indeed pagans and not quite civilized at the beginning of XV century.

 

[nicechinos]

Lithuania itself can never crush Muscovy because Muscovites have a good general and attrition will kill Lithuanian troops, while Kyivan and Chernihiv rebels will finish the deal. But an alliance of Poland + Lithuania + Novgorod can deal with mostly common Muscoy + Sweden or Muscovy + Teutonic\Livonic Order (everything depends on rivals setup day 0)

Indeed, what could be worse. 500 ducats in the bank and huge income allowing for mercing up for sieges. Ryazan with no allies. 5 to 6 ready and willing allies (Livonians, Riga, Novgorod, Poland, Bohemia, Sweden). There is no way Muscovy can ally Sweden if CoP is enabled. "Muscovy can not reach Denmark" so can not participate in Swedish independence war. Novgorod and Lithuania have this benefit.
Riga + PLC + Novgorod + Sweden + huge income and treasury vs Muscovy + Denmark is a no brainer. Lithuania has amazing starting position.
Attrition kills everyone, Muscovites included. Lithuania has higher forcelimit and income allowing for mercs to siege Muscovy's lands. Muscovy vs PLC right off the bat is much more challenging.
P.S. Could you cut the "Russian propaganda" narrative? Fostering an intelligent discussion will make this thread better off.

 

[zemuzil]

Indeed, what could be worse. 500 ducats in the bank and huge income allowing for mercing up for sieges. Ryazan with no allies. 5 to 6 ready and willing allies (Livonians, Riga, Novgorod, Poland, Bohemia, Sweden). There is no way Muscovy can ally Sweden if CoP is enabled. "Muscovy can not reach Denmark" so can not participate in Swedish independence war. Novgorod and Lithuania have this benefit.
Riga + PLC + Novgorod + Sweden + huge income and treasury vs Muscovy + Denmark is a no brainer. Lithuania has amazing starting position.
Attrition kills everyone, Muscovites included. Lithuania has higher forcelimit and income allowing for mercs to siege Muscovy's lands. Muscovy vs PLC right off the bat is much more challenging.
P.S. Could you cut the "Russian propaganda" narrative? Fostering an intelligent discussion will make this thread better off.

i had over 1000 after like 20 - 30 years this is just wrong , no way Lithuania was as wealthy western Europe

this is the main reason why i don't want more provinces in ruthenia they have too much already

 

[nicechinos]

i had over 1000 after like 20 - 30 years this is just wrong

Agreed, after 8 years I had 1kk as well. I don't play Western Nations often (may be England is richer) so that is a starting wealth record for me. Indeed somewhat surprising.

 

[jrgen3]

Agreed, after 8 years I had 1kk as well. I don't play Western Nations often (may be England is richer) so that is starting wealth record for me.

Burgundy and England are the only countries in Europe at the same income level as Lithuania. I think the order is England> Burgundy>Lithuania

 

[zemuzil]

Burgundy and England are the only countries in Europe at the same income level as Lithuania. I think the order is England> Burgundy>Lithuania

i checked the ledger earlier Lithuania is on 6th place as most wealthy nation in europe and mostly thanks to new added ruthenian provinces this certainly isn't right

and yet that guy advocates to add even more seriously...

 

[jrgen3]

i checked the ledger earlier Lithuania is on 6th place as most wealthy nation in europe and mostly thanks to new added ruthenian provinces this certainly isn't right

and yet that guy advocates to add even more seriously...

They probably fall down to 6th because they don't have a high trade income. Their base tax is the third highest in Europe if I recall correctly.

 

[zemuzil]

They probably fall down to 6th because they don't have a high trade income. Their base tax is the third highest in Europe if I recall correctly.

Well you get tons of cash fast as Lithuania anyway enough to crush muscovy

In first war i vassalized livs second war ryazan they waited for muscovy to start fighting novogrod and attacked and grabbed some lands for my russian vassal

before 1500 there was no muscovy anymore

 

[MaticT]

Guys, you have to take into account that Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was the largest european country and altogether had population around 11-12 million, which IIRC wasn't all that behind from HRE after the 30 years war devastated the region. Lithuania altogether, without that actual decentralisation that can't be portrayed in the game, was one of the richest entities accordingly. We can safely assume that with constant Tatar raids, wars with Muscovy, Cossak and noble rebelions GDP per capita wasn't exactly the same as in some western region that didn't face the same difficulties, but almost 10 times the population of Sweden, Portugal, twice as much as in England etc. had to show somewhere.

Polish internal struggles are somewhat decently portrayed in the game, while Hmyelnicky rebbelion (I believe with 300k troops largest rebelion in europe back than) and The Deluge would be nice if they got some sort of mechanic to portray the decline of the ex-superpower the Commonwealth used to be. Most of all that scenario would be extremely playable. Brandenburg battled for it's independence, Sweden for it's Baltic supremacy, Russia tried to get as big chunk of territory as possible, Cossacs were fighting for independent state and the Hordes tried their best to harm whichever state was their biggest threat at various times (Crimean tatars switched sides almost yearly if my memory serves me right, it's been a while since I've studied this part of the history)

 

[Xinkc]

Actually i don't ask for any buffs. Average BT could be halved for Eastern Europe, but the number of provinces could also be doubled, for example. It's just not fun to play in a world where even uncolonized African provinces are 3-6 times smaller (thus more detailed) than yours.

Maybe I'm blind but from the examples you show, this statement is definitely a hyperbole. Maybe the Eastern European provinces are twice as big as much of the world at most but the overwhelming majority barely look 50% bigger. Still something to look into but it might not mean that many new provinces.

 

[Zak Preston]

Maybe I'm blind but from the examples you show, this statement is definitely a hyperbole. Maybe the Eastern European provinces are twice as big as much of the world at most but the overwhelming majority barely look 50% bigger. Still something to look into but it might not mean that many new provinces.

Do you mean linear sizes or total area? From simple geometry a square with 1m side will be 4 times smaller than a square with 2m side. So yeah, some provinces look twice smaller (one side is larger by ~1.41 = 41%), like in West Africa or Central America, and some are much smaller (compare NA East coast provinces sizes to huge Belarussians). Those are rough approximations.

 

[Zak Preston]

Guys, you have to take into account that Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth was the largest european country and altogether had population around 11-12 million, which IIRC wasn't all that behind from HRE after the 30 years war devastated the region. Lithuania altogether, without that actual decentralisation that can't be portrayed in the game, was one of the richest entities accordingly. We can safely assume that with constant Tatar raids, wars with Muscovy, Cossak and noble rebelions GDP per capita wasn't exactly the same as in some western region that didn't face the same difficulties, but almost 10 times the population of Sweden, Portugal, twice as much as in England etc. had to show somewhere.

Polish internal struggles are somewhat decently portrayed in the game, while Hmyelnicky rebbelion (I believe with 300k troops largest rebelion in europe back than) and The Deluge would be nice if they got some sort of mechanic to portray the decline of the ex-superpower the Commonwealth used to be. Most of all that scenario would be extremely playable. Brandenburg battled for it's independence, Sweden for it's Baltic supremacy, Russia tried to get as big chunk of territory as possible, Cossacs were fighting for independent state and the Hordes tried their best to harm whichever state was their biggest threat at various times (Crimean tatars switched sides almost yearly if my memory serves me right, it's been a while since I've studied this part of the history)

Thank you, good sir =)
I really hope that somewhen Paradoxes will turn their eye to Eastern Europe and add more exciting content to that region, like they constantly did to others =))

 

[ahyangyi]

Although I do wish Belarus and Ukraine region could use a few more provinces, I don't think it's going to happen soon.

First, the area was only contested between PLC and Russia in EU4 timeline, which is different from France and Germany which begins with quite a few minors, and ROTW whose region are often divided by the colonizers in a surprisingly fine-grained way (like in the Caribbeans, in west africa and in Guyana).

Second, it's not worth it to release a patch to only touch one region. There is a cost associated to any map overhaul since it will break everyone's savegame...

 

[Emiliana]

frankly, i think switzerland should be having a huge discipline bonus, because of the reputation of swiss mercenaries it has to be early too, since pikes kind of go out of style about 50 years into the game, basically.

unique swiss pike unit anyone? :> they were scary to enemy armies as swiss mercenaries would march with resolve and discipline into the wall of death while the other army would turn and run from the situation.

i mean, poland already has hussar and winged hussar, a massively buffed unit with its own gfx.

(sorry about this on this thread, but the point is, i do agree other areas can have more details and flavor, and poland is represented more than some that you seem to think, too.)

 

[Zak Preston]

frankly, i think switzerland should be having a huge discipline bonus, because of the reputation of swiss mercenaries it has to be early too, since pikes kind of go out of style about 50 years into the game, basically.

unique swiss pike unit anyone? :> they were scary to enemy armies as swiss mercenaries would march with resolve and discipline into the wall of death while the other army would turn and run from the situation.

i mean, poland already has hussar and winged hussar, a massively buffed unit with its own gfx.

(sorry about this on this thread, but the point is, i do agree other areas can have more details and flavor, and poland is represented more than some that you seem to think, too.)

Completely agree, Switzerland should get massive bonuses for their infantry =)