Question to devs about Eastern European provinces in post-AoW

[Seelmeister]

Folks, let's stop trading insults here. Disagree, but do so respectfully. Inflammatory posts have been deleted.

 

[Zak Preston]

I also do not want any kind of rubbish conversation (it was that up to now). Debates require reasoning, facts and more importantly understanding of the subject (what is vassal in EU4?). By analyzing the properties of EU4 vassal it's easy to reach a conclusion if Muscovy could be considered "a vassal" (EU4 sense) or not at a starting date. I was presented with none of that. Polish mate just disappeared and you didn't go anywhere beyond wiki title. Cheers.
Вбросили и убежали.

IMHO Eastern Slavic region lacks it's flavor completely: Zaporozhian and Don Cossacks were a weighty factor that turned (or could turn, like Stenka Razin's uprising)history not even once, no National Liberation War which Bohdan Khmelnytsky won, no possible decisions for PLC to avoid war or accept demands (since EU4 is more a sandbox than a historical textbook) nad so on.

Since tsar Peter I westernized Muscovy\Russia , a bunch of events to make process more interesting.

 

[unmerged(652342)]

Dude, while there is an official state history, there are also a lot of alternate points of view on the same historical events. Unfortunately, we will never be able to find out real historu untill we will be able to travel in time and read thoughts ))
This is why history is a subject to huge speculations, since each side needs some proofs for it's legitimacy, some kind of national epic and heritage, that's normal. Therefor there will always exist frauds, blackmails and simple fakes to distract from inconveniences and focus on something more suitable.

- if history is fake, why you make ridiculous treads and claims about some historical events? Why bother if everything is fabricated and cant be proved without resorting to timetravel? Were is logic?

IMHO Eastern Slavic region lacks it's flavor completely: Zaporozhian and Don Cossacks were a weighty factor that turned (or could turn, like Stenka Razin's uprising)history not even once, no National Liberation War which Bohdan Khmelnytsky won, no possible decisions for PLC to avoid war or accept demands (since EU4 is more a sandbox than a historical textbook) nad so on.

Since tsar Peter I westernized Muscovy\Russia , a bunch of events to make process more interesting.

- we can build second Great Wall from things that EU game engine can simulate properly and eastern slavic region would be one of the smallest parts of it.

 

[Zak Preston]

- if history is fake, why you make ridiculous treads and claims about some historical events? Why bother if everything is fabricated and cant be proved without resorting to timetravel? Were is logic?

- we can build second Great Wall from things that EU game engine can simulate properly and eastern slavic region would be one of the smallest parts of it.

The same reason which made devs update China, Korea, New World, Asia and Africa, maybe.

 

[Big Blue Blob]

Muscovy was not a vassal of the Golden Horde, but it paid tribute. This should be modelled by early game events where Muscovy has the choice of paying ducats or being invaded by the Golden Horde, occurring every few years.

 

[giant_sloth]

Habsburgs were paying tribute to Ottomans to like 1686. Because of Hungary. So yes, such a mechanic deserves consideration.

 

[olm]

Imo stuff like historical tribute payments aren't particularly relevant to whole "Eastern Europe needs more provinces" issue.

 

[giant_sloth]

Imo stuff like historical tribute payments aren't particularly relevant to whole "Eastern Europe needs more provinces" issue.

Why, more provinces=more tribute to our Turkic overlords. You don't want to make Sultan angry, do you?

 

[Zak Preston]

Why, more provinces=more tribute to our Turkic overlords. You don't want to make Sultan angry, do you?

I'd say rather not to overlords, but to local racketeers ))

 

[nicechinos]

Muscovy was not a vassal of the Golden Horde, but it paid tribute. This should be modelled by early game events where Muscovy has the choice of paying ducats or being invaded by the Golden Horde, occurring every few years.

The same for Austria and Lithuania and probably another 10 countries making them unplayable?

 

[grez52]

Can you not just solve it by starting Muscovy paying war reprimands to the Golden Horde? Surely that represents the start game more accurately.

 

[nicechinos]

Can you not just solve it by starting Muscovy paying war reprimands to the Golden Horde? Surely that represents the start game more accurately.

Why Muscovy? Why not Lithuania and Austria? Do you have any solid evidence (besides "common internet knowledge but not really into the subject" which allows a strongly worded ignorant "Surely") to calculate the amount of tribute to be paid (relative to income or in absolute size) and even to state if this was the case in 1444?

 

[nicechinos]

Muscovy was not a vassal of the Golden Horde, but it paid tribute. This should be modelled by early game events where Muscovy has the choice of paying ducats or being invaded by the Golden Horde, occurring every few years.

Do you have evidence to state how much was tribute and how often it was paid, what it was connected to and was it even meaningful enough to incorporate into the game? Why do you omit Austria and Lithuania from the same mechanics?

 

[nicechinos]

Zak, really sorry to trash your topic with this. But I didn't start this. You have to know Alexander Nevsky's famous sword saying.
Anyway I do support your proposal to add more provinces to Ruhenian region and to enrich the game by Zaporozhie/Don cossacs events for Russia/PLC, independence wars/ Turkish alliance and so forth. The region as a whole could indeed enjoy much more love than it currently gets.

 

[DarkCruor]

Did I mention anything else? Just a simple wiki link, and you start making your own conclusions and building conspiracy theories

If you are seriously claiming Muscovy should be a vassal Dai Viet, Korea, the Jurchen tribes, the Oirats + Mongolia, Laos, and maybe even Japan (unless China just forged the documents that shown Japan sending regular tribute to them during this time period) should all be Marches for Ming.

That's not how Marches work.

Edit: and even then, Muscovy had already been not giving tribute for years and very sporadically. Like its often claimed that it stopped in 1480 but the tribute infact completely stopped in 1471 or so. But its only in 1480 where Ivan III made a declaration making fun of the Golden Horde that people think he got independence.

Really the 'tributes' after 1380 were mostly raids and them paying the Golden Horde to stop. EU3 better represents this imo.

 

[ekorovin]

What would be really neat, however, is for Moscow to start at war with GH, since 1444 finds Ulu-Mohhamed in Nizhny Novgorod, preparing to meet Muscovite army in a battle of Murom in January, 1445, where he will be defeated.

Or, in the spirit of the thread, let's make USA start as Algerian march? What, they did pay tribute to Barbary pirates till 1816, as did UK and France

 

[ahyangyi]

If you are seriously claiming Muscovy should be a vassal Dai Viet, Korea, the Jurchen tribes, the Oirats + Mongolia, Laos, and maybe even Japan (unless China just forged the documents that shown Japan sending regular tribute to them during this time period) should all be Marches for Ming.

That's not how Marches work.

Edit: and even then, Muscovy had already been not giving tribute for years and very sporadically. Like its often claimed that it stopped in 1480 but the tribute infact completely stopped in 1471 or so. But its only in 1480 where Ivan III made a declaration making fun of the Golden Horde that people think he got independence.

Really the 'tributes' after 1380 were mostly raids and them paying the Golden Horde to stop. EU3 better represents this imo.

I'd like to know the size of said tributes. If the tributes were actually small and symbolic, we already have a mechanic to represent this: station your diplomat to "improve relationship"

 

[nicechinos]

What would be really neat, however, is for Moscow to start at war with GH, since 1444 finds Ulu-Mohhamed in Nizhny Novgorod, preparing to meet Muscovite army in a battle of Murom in January, 1445, where he will be defeated.

Or, in the spirit of the thread, let's make USA start as Algerian march? What, they did pay tribute to Barbary pirates till 1816, as did UK and France

That. Thank you, comrade. That's a kind of knowledge we need to discuss the subject.

 

[ekorovin]

I'd like to know the size of said tributes. If the tributes were actually small and symbolic, we already have a mechanic to represent this: station your diplomat to "improve relationship"

If you mean 1444 specifically, then 0, there was war both between Moscow and khan and in the Horde itself, so even if Moscow had any desire to pay, it would be hard to determine to whom exactly.

If you want more broad assessment, then theoretically Grand princes of Moscow had to pay roughly 2% of yearly income (1/10 of 8 years income, to be precise). At least that's what they demanded from their subjects as "Tatar tax". However, most of this sum never left Moscow: in 1360, out of 75.000 rubles gathered for tribute, only 5000 were actually paid to GH.
Of course different years were different, plus taxation always is rather murky subject.

 

[Big Blue Blob]

Tributes should exist between some European states (Muscovy, Lithuania, Austria) and Muslims, maybe in the form of war reparations. However, these states were absolutely not vassals, they only paid tribute, and that was inconsistent. Muscovy should also start at war with the GH as ekorovin said. The same system should exist in East Asia where many states pay tribute to Ming. Tributes will not make the countries unplayable. Remember, DDRJake turned Foix into a great power, and Foix is a vassal.