Question to devs about Eastern European provinces in post-AoW

[olm]

Imo Livonia should look something like this:

Spoiler

1 - Ösel
2 - Wiek
3 - Reval
4 - Narva
5 - Fellin
6 - Wenden
7 - Dorpat
8 - Kurland
9 - Semigallia
10 - Riga
11 - Kokenhusen
12 - Selburg
13 - Dünaburg

That would reflect more accurately the historical division of territory between Livonian Order and Bishoprics of Riga, Dorpat, Ösel-Wiek and Courland:

Spoiler

 

[Scimittar]

I would like to add, that Muscovy in 1444 still paid tribute to Golden Horde. I see, than Moldavia is the March of Poland then maybe Muscovy should be a vassal or have to pay reparations to Golden Horde?

 

[nicechinos]

I would like to add, that Muscovy in 1444 still paid tribute to Golden Horde. I see, than Moldavia is the March of Poland then maybe Muscovy should be a vassal or have to pay reparations to Golden Horde?

Have you researched the subject or just saw this ridiculous stupidity over the internet?

 

[TheBoozehammer]

Eastern Europe could use some changes, as could most of Europe.

 

[Big Blue Blob]

The most important change for me would be the addition of Lithuanian coast, to stop Teutonics and Livonians from having an ahistorical land connection. Steppe nations should also be stronger to stop Muscovy destroying them easily at times when it was afraid of them in history.

 

[Mister X]

Balkan is in a desperate need of a rework. Yeah, i understand the area was poor in the period but still, a empty stretch with a yurt in central asia that would become a city in the 19th century has it's own province, why can't the Balkans.

 

[Zak Preston]

I would like to add, that Muscovy in 1444 still paid tribute to Golden Horde. I see, than Moldavia is the March of Poland then maybe Muscovy should be a vassal or have to pay reparations to Golden Horde?

Have you researched the subject or just saw this ridiculous stupidity over the internet?

A simple WIKI search does miracles =)

Muscovy remained a tributary to the Golden Horde (under the "Tatar Yoke") until 1480. Ivan III further consolidated the state during his 43-year reign, campaigning against his major remaining rival power, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and by 1503 he had tripled the territory of Muscovy, adopting the title of tsar and claiming the title of "Ruler of all Rus'".

 

[Zak Preston]

Balkan is in a desperate need of a rework. Yeah, i understand the area was poor in the period but still, a empty stretch with a yurt in central asia that would become a city in the 19th century has it's own province, why can't the Balkans.

Balkans were populous enough in XV century to make really new and exiting provinces to match Italy.
BTW Italy is also in desperate need of some rework.

 

[unmerged(652342)]

I would like to add, that Muscovy in 1444 still paid tribute to Golden Horde. I see, than Moldavia is the March of Poland then maybe Muscovy should be a vassal or have to pay reparations to Golden Horde?

A simple WIKI search does miracles =)

- paying tribute to highly civilized non sedentary people of the steps, so they would not plunder your lands and not enslave your serfs, is not the same thing as being vassal, especially considering EU4 vassal game mechanics. But i understand that this is can be hard to understand for special yellow-blue people.

 

[nicechinos]

A simple WIKI search does miracles =)

Thank you, Zak. Exactly what I meant. Muscovy was not a vassal of Golden Horde.

 

[Zak Preston]

- paying tribute to highly civilized non sedentary people of the steps, so they would not plunder your lands and not enslave your serfs, is not the same thing as being vassal, especially considering EU4 vassal game mechanics. But i understand that this is can be hard to understand for special yellow-blue people.

Did I mention anything else? Just a simple wiki link, and you start making your own conclusions and building conspiracy theories

 

[nicechinos]

These guys can't make a logical comparison between a kingdom paying occasional (from time to time) tributes (conveniently missing a minor but important fact that Muscovy was in constant state of war with Golden Horde under Vasily Tyomny and Ivan Veliky) and vassal dependent on suzerain in internal politics and diplomacy. They always quote Wiki but never manage to get past the article title. Sad. This is just too difficult.

 

[nicechinos]

Did I mention anything else? Just a simple wiki link, and you start making your own conclusions and building conspiracy theories

That's right Zak. Just random link without analysis and understanding of the subject. That's what I said.

 

[cleef]

So can we agree that some European regions that need more/rewoerked provinces are: Balkans, Italy, Some English/Irish/Scottish areas... what else ?

 

[Zak Preston]

These guys can't make a logical comparison between a kingdom paying occasional (from time to time) tributes (conveniently missing a minor but important fact that Muscovy was in constant state of war with Golden Horde under Vasily Tyomny and Ivan Veliky) and vassal dependent on suzerain in internal politics and diplomacy. They always quote Wiki but never manage to get past the article title. Sad. This is just too difficult.

Dude, while there is an official state history, there are also a lot of alternate points of view on the same historical events. Unfortunately, we will never be able to find out real historu untill we will be able to travel in time and read thoughts ))
This is why history is a subject to huge speculations, since each side needs some proofs for it's legitimacy, some kind of national epic and heritage, that's normal. Therefor there will always exist frauds, blackmails and simple fakes to distract from inconveniences and focus on something more suitable.

 

[ekorovin]

People seem to confuse the nature of relationship between Moscow and GH. On one hand Moscow did pay tribute, on the other GH was nowhere near any ability to actually impose any sort of rule over itself, let alone Moscow. On the the third hand (yeah, I have three hands, what of it?) Lithuania paid it also, till 1560, no less, would you make Lithuania GH vassal too?

And do you know when PLC stopped paying tribute to Crimea? In 1713.

 

[nicechinos]

Dude, while there is an official state history, there are also a lot of alternate points of view on the same historical events. Unfortunately, we will never be able to find out real historu untill we will be able to travel in time and read thoughts ))
This is why history is a subject to huge speculations, since each side needs some proofs for it's legitimacy, some kind of national epic and heritage, that's normal. Therefor there will always exist frauds, blackmails and simple fakes to distract from inconveniences and focus on something more suitable.

Thanks for backing down mate. You do sound close to reasonable now. What was the purpose of pressing wiki link in that case?

 

[Zak Preston]

So can we agree that some European regions that need more/rewoerked provinces are: Balkans, Italy, Some English/Irish/Scottish areas... what else ?

Prussian region (Teutonic and Livonic Order) Western parts of Russia (say "hi!!" to huge Smolensk, Voronezh, Kursk, Ryazan and Pskov could also have a few more provinces), whole Ruthenia, Polotsk, Mazovia, generic Poland and Lithuania and maybe Silesia.

 

[Zak Preston]

Thanks for backing down mate. You do sound close to reasonable now. What was the purpose of pressing wiki link in that case? Объехать на кривой козе? As Slavs used to say.

Everyone sees what he wants to see, in general. I see no point in starting yet another debates, especially when there is no reason. I just want the game to be enjoyable in any region of the map, not only reworked ones.

 

[nicechinos]

Everyone sees what he wants to see, in general. I see no point in starting yet another debates, especially when there is no reason. I just want the game to be enjoyable in any region of the map, not only reworked ones.

I also do not want any kind of rubbish conversation (it was that up to now). Debates require reasoning, facts and more importantly understanding of the subject (what is vassal in EU4?). By analyzing the properties of EU4 vassal it's easy to reach a conclusion if Muscovy could be considered "a vassal" (EU4 sense) or not at a starting date. I was presented with none of that. Polish mate just disappeared and you didn't go anywhere beyond wiki title. Cheers.
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