Question on intelligence / collaboration govt

[Viking43]

Hi,

Playing as germany,
I invested quite a lot into "prepare collaboration government", completed them and launched them and they show green on the map
Did it for france and poland.

Now i took over both countries

But in the polish or french occupied terrotories screens, digging into the regions
I see no modifier whatsoever in the compliance bar, no positive effect from the "prepare collaboration governement" preparations i did (nor any modifier in the resistance bar)

What may i be missing?

 

[brainiac1530]

There is no modifier. What it does, is for each point of collaboration you have built, you get 1 point of compliance in each of their core states when they capitulate to you. The effect is instantaneous. In a recent game, I used the operation on some countries that never did capitulate to me. Lesson learned, I guess.

Compliance builds very slowly. If you have moderately high compliance, it's almost certainly because of the collaboration. Even to get to 30 compliance, with civilian oversight, takes 486 days (about 1 year and four months.) It's 830 days to get to 45 (which is how much collaboration you'd get from one operation with the bonus outcome.)

 

[Vlad123]

There is no modifier. What it does, is for each point of collaboration you have built, you get 1 point of compliance in each of their core states when they capitulate to you. The effect is instantaneous. In a recent game, I used the operation on some countries that never did capitulate to me. Lesson learned, I guess.

Compliance builds very slowly. If you have moderately high compliance, it's almost certainly because of the collaboration. Even to get to 30 compliance, with civilian oversight, takes 486 days (about 1 year and four months.) It's 830 days to get to 45 (which is how much collaboration you'd get from one operation with the bonus outcome.)

The problem is that you can't do it in many countries (or rather you can do it in poland, france but you can't do it in the UK ... due to time constraints). They should make decisions that increase compilance by paying in PP or consumer good.

 

[brainiac1530]

Unless UK is asleep at the wheel, and unfortunately they often are as the AI, you're not gonna Sealion any time soon. There's time for a collaboration operation against them if you want it. However, keep in mind it might not do anything useful if the war is over when they capitulate. You may want them as a traditional puppet in order to keep their fleet. It's probably more productive to do it to the Raj instead. Having high compliance there is great for the manpower, and they make a fantastic collaboration government for the same reason.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, because I forgot this was a thing until very recently, that countries like Poland and France that become governments in exile, require even more time to build compliance in. I wasn't sure how this was calculated, so I just had a look at the defines, a recent save, and I think I figured it out. The defines value COMPLIANCE_DECAY_PER_EXILE_LEGITIMACY = -0.015 is simply multiplied by the government in exile's legitimacy divided by 100. Or, you can think of it as multiplying by the fraction of the maximum legitimacy. Since I determined this completely empirically, I'm not sure how this might change if you were to modify the max legitimacy in the defines. It doesn't appear to depend on the current compliance. I don't know why, but Poland has a lot of legitimacy in my game. Free France at least has a focus tree to explain their moderate legitimacy. The lowlands nations barely have any.

 

[Vlad123]

Unless UK is asleep at the wheel, and unfortunately they often are as the AI, you're not gonna Sealion any time soon. There's time for a collaboration operation against them if you want it. However, keep in mind it might not do anything useful if the war is over when they capitulate. You may want them as a traditional puppet in order to keep their fleet. It's probably more productive to do it to the Raj instead. Having high compliance there is great for the manpower, and they make a fantastic collaboration government for the same reason.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, because I forgot this was a thing until very recently, that countries like Poland and France that become governments in exile, require even more time to build compliance in. I wasn't sure how this was calculated, so I just had a look at the defines, a recent save, and I think I figured it out. The defines value COMPLIANCE_DECAY_PER_EXILE_LEGITIMACY = -0.015 is simply multiplied by the government in exile's legitimacy divided by 100. Or, you can think of it as multiplying by the fraction of the maximum legitimacy. Since I determined this completely empirically, I'm not sure how this might change if you were to modify the max legitimacy in the defines. It doesn't appear to depend on the current compliance. I don't know why, but Poland has a lot of legitimacy in my game. Free France at least has a focus tree to explain their moderate legitimacy. The lowlands nations barely have any.

Not only the compilance, but also increases the resistance: nice + 20%! And if we add the opposing missions (which NEVER decay!) The aforementioned colony is unusable even if you have put all the spies with the mission to fight the resistance to the maximum level! That is, the resistance / compilance factor is broken, they should either increase the compilance (0.100 instead of 070/75) or make decisions to increase the compilance, because seriously it takes YEARS to get the compilance of a 40% when then you do puppets etc because the war is over ... it knows so much about mockery!

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

Just did a game as Germany just for the sake of proving to myself collaboration governments are as broken as I thought. Challenge: don't build any MILs, don't build any guns (tanks, planes etc are okay, just no guns), follow historical timings and no non-focus wars. Spammed collaboration governments in France, Germany, UK and USSR, This is the map in Jan 1942:

I have 100% compliance is USSR, > 80% in France, UK, Poland. UK is my puppet in RoW so I could get their fleet if I felt like it, but tbh, at this point, it's game over. Collaboration govt are broken. Only compliance issue is Yugoslavia as I forgot all about it...

 

[MR2]

Just did a game as Germany just for the sake of proving to myself collaboration governments are as broken as I thought. Challenge: don't build any MILs, don't build any guns (tanks, planes etc are okay, just no guns), follow historical timings and no non-focus wars. Spammed collaboration governments in France, Germany, UK and USSR, This is the map in Jan 1942:

View attachment 661160

I have 100% compliance is USSR, > 80% in France, UK, Poland. UK is my puppet in RoW so I could get their fleet if I felt like it, but tbh, at this point, it's game over. Collaboration govt are broken. Only compliance issue is Yugoslavia as I forgot all about it...

Well done. Bravo! Excellent example of the 1980-2020 tactics being employed today...

BTW, show us your Garrison templates.

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

BTW, show us your Garrison templates.

20w cavalry - doesn't matter though, high compliance is due to the collaboration govt spy missions you do before the war. Once a nation capitulates, you get compliance from the collaboration govt. Here's the game file if you want to have a look.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Just did a game as Germany just for the sake of proving to myself collaboration governments are as broken as I thought. Challenge: don't build any MILs, don't build any guns (tanks, planes etc are okay, just no guns), follow historical timings and no non-focus wars. Spammed collaboration governments in France, Germany, UK and USSR, This is the map in Jan 1942:

View attachment 661160

I have 100% compliance is USSR, > 80% in France, UK, Poland. UK is my puppet in RoW so I could get their fleet if I felt like it, but tbh, at this point, it's game over. Collaboration govt are broken. Only compliance issue is Yugoslavia as I forgot all about it...

Im confused. How did you capitulate them without any guns to field troops in order to attack their victory points? I guess I dont understand what you were attempting to accomplish here.

 

[brainiac1530]

You can get a lot of guns from capitulated AI nations, especially in vanilla where it seems like they barely produce anything else. What I'd be curious to know, is how he got enough divisions in the field to start down his focus tree. A big part of the German national focus tree is gated behind manpower in the field. I'm not sure how much you can actually field with only the guns you start with. Is it enough to do Anschluss at least? That may get you the guns necessary for the Sudetenland, and so on.

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

You can get a lot of guns from capitulated AI nations, especially in vanilla where it seems like they barely produce anything else. What I'd be curious to know, is how he got enough divisions in the field to start down his focus tree. A big part of the German national focus tree is gated behind manpower in the field. I'm not sure how much you can actually field with only the guns you start with. Is it enough to do Anschluss at least? That may get you the guns necessary for the Sudetenland, and so on.

Good question. Template switching. You get 5 XP from Rhineland so you create a 1 infantry template and switch to release guns as needed for collaboration govt etc and building a ton more 1 infantry templates (build 72 of them or so). Then when you release them, you switch them to starting division. That puts a tons of extremely poorly armed troops in the field, but enough to do Anschluss & Sudetenland. And Danzig, because by that point, as you say, you've got (nearly) enough guns from captured ones. By the time France falls, you have enough guns to take on the universe.

It's a complete faff TBH - not really what you'd ever do - but I was merely trying to give myself a challenge whilst checking if collaboration governments were as silly as I thought (and they are).

 

[Vlad123]

For URSS are super usefull because you not conquer the other 283473498723 small city for make them capitulate

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

Yup - USSR capitulated when I took Moscow (I'd already taken Stalingrad, Leningrad and Baku - but didn't have the slog to the Urals, thank heaven...).

 

[TalyonUngol]

I mean. They aren't broken. They just capitulate sooner and give you manpower and resources faster. Significantly faster. But they are def worth doing in all high manpower regions. Ussr. Raj. Dutch east indies. China.

 

[MR2]

@CantGetNoSleep; Your save game was very interesting. You still cannot conquer by Collaboration alone. You must still declare war, defeat their defenses, and capture the major cities... Democratically led countries will take even longer. At what point would you decide to change the level of Subjection - when do you Annex vs keeping them as Subject/Reichkommwhatever?

 

[TalyonUngol]

@CantGetNoSleep; Your save game was very interesting. You still cannot conquer by Collaboration alone. You must still declare war, defeat their defenses, and capture the major cities... Democratically led countries will take even longer. At what point would you decide to change the level of Subjection - when do you Annex vs keeping them as Subject/Reichkommwhatever?

I never puppet unless i have to. It's just not worth it for me. Always annex.

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

@CantGetNoSleep; Your save game was very interesting. You still cannot conquer by Collaboration alone. You must still declare war, defeat their defenses, and capture the major cities... Democratically led countries will take even longer. At what point would you decide to change the level of Subjection - when do you Annex vs keeping them as Subject/Reichkommwhatever?

At 80% compliance you get the option. It’s usually not worth doing from a strict immediate factory perspective but can be worth it in the long run as the puppet then builds their own stuff, you get access to their manpower (via troops / garrison support) and they can put more building in their provinces than you could.

The decision is very situational, but as a guide,
- if you’re low on manpower, go down puppet.
- If you need more slots to build stuff, then annex.
- if they’re a small country with tons of resources you need, puppet may be better because you can extract 100% of the resources at a modest factory cost (rather than being forced to export all of it).

 

[TalyonUngol]

At 80% compliance you get the option. It’s usually not worth doing from a strict immediate factory perspective but can be worth it in the long run as the puppet then builds their own stuff, you get access to their manpower (via troops / garrison support) and they can put more building in their provinces than you could.

The decision is very situational, but as a guide,
- if you’re low on manpower, go down puppet.
- If you need more slots to build stuff, then annex.
- if they’re a small country with tons of resources you need, puppet may be better because you can extract 100% of the resources at a modest factory cost (rather than being forced to export all of it).

The problem is, its just very clunky to use puppet manpower, plus most of the time the puppets don't build properly anyway. Not to mention you get more than enough factories by annexing.

Take Germany for example. You get plenty of factories taking over Poland and France and even more once you take down Russia. If you get your governments set up in France and Poland, which you can before you take them both, you're def set up for the rest of t he game. More factories than you ever will need! Puppeting kind of removes that. It lowers that amount of equipment you can produce. I rather just have the factories given to myself directly. I think you'll get more factories with the higher compliance than you will puppeting.