Question on doctrines in 1.9.3

[Kryndude]

There's almost no scenario where you'd want to go GBP in MP outside nichés that rely entirely on holding provinces like France and China. The extra planning bonus decay from manual movement just kills an already anti-micro doctrine, and everyone who's played MP knows micro is king.

GBP had one thing going for it on the attack: extra planning bonus. That advantage evaporated the moment PDX penalised manual movement.

I agree, I didn't mean GBP is better than MW or SF, I meant it can be good enough to justify taking for some nations under certain circumstances, I might add.

 

[Mister Analyst]

There's almost no scenario where you'd want to go GBP in MP outside nichés that rely entirely on holding provinces like France and China. The extra planning bonus decay from manual movement just kills an already anti-micro doctrine, and everyone who's played MP knows micro is king.

GBP had one thing going for it on the attack: extra planning bonus. That advantage evaporated the moment PDX penalised manual movement.

Not quite.

Planning decay of 8% during player manual movement was added per HOI4v 1.5 defines

PLAYER_ORDER_PLANNING_DECAY = 0.08,                -- Amount of planning lost due to player manual order

Planning decay during player manual movement was revised to 3% per HOI4v 1.9 defines

PLAYER_ORDER_PLANNING_DECAY = 0.03,                -- Amount of planning lost due to player manual order

 

[desphorin]

I am surprised by how many of you disagree with my templates. I want to clarify that I try to make the suggestion with both SP and MP in mind. In SP, you can do whatever you want and get away (artillery only anyone?).

Those are awful divisions. No org, no hp, and are extremely expensive. 10/10 and 13/7 are better. Keep in mind you can add SPGs for mobile warfare to improve soft attack.

If you have to face with any other decent tanks, then your templates will get pierced and couldnt pierce the enemy back, so the extra org and hp will not help. If you are solely going for anti-infantry, then something like a 4-8-4 (med, SPG, mot) MW would work.

What do you mean with "better" ?

For any reasons, I couldn't "use" the website, you stated above; but I took a quick look into the technology-data and found two "things" where MW beats SF regarding tanks:
- higher org and morale
- higher breaktrough

In my opinion the first point -> morale is the key for tank warfare: tanks have to move; a stopped and waiting tank is useless. And when tanks move, they loose org, so one purpose of a tank-doctrine is to tone down that incoming "weakness".

I always use a template with 8 tanks, 4 mot/mech and 3 SPArt. ( compromising combatpower and supply )

Better stats in soft and hard attack.

I agree MW has higher org and recovery, which is precisely why MW still has a place in MP.

In SP, I dont think you need the extra org (~30 is more than enough). Every time I ran out of org is because I am using them to snipe VP, which is not their ideal purpose. I think tanks should be used to (mainly) beat enemy tanks.

For breakthrough, in SP you basically dont need anything more than 500. The extra breakthrough in MW compared to SF is often useless. You only need enough of it to tank the hardness-adjusted hits. With say around 60% hardness you need like 800 soft attack and 300 hard attack to overwhelm 500 breakthrough, which is not gonna happen in SP.

I think you mistyped something with your template? It's not any standard width.

MW tanks are better, because of insane recovery rate and notably higher move speed.

Like I said above, that is why MW is still utilised in MP. The extra org and speed, can in rare and lucky occasion, make overruns.

GBP had one thing going for it on the attack: extra planning bonus. That advantage evaporated the moment PDX penalised manual movement.

They toned the penalty down a bit in 1.9 so it is more friendly using it now.

The idea is that you get benefits from 2 doctrines if you exped your tanks to someone using GBP. Obviously no one asks you as Germany to do GBP. But if you have too many tanks that you cant micro, sending them to some minors who use GBP may catch the opponent in surprise.

In theory it all works, though I havent seen enough to justify if it will definitely work.

 

[STABBY5]

If you have to face with any other decent tanks, then your templates will get pierced and couldnt pierce the enemy back, so the extra org and hp will not help. If you are solely going for anti-infantry, then something like a 4-8-4 (med, SPG, mot) MW would work.

Yours would lose too many vehicles in combat and its armor values would come back to par or lower. Compared to just adding in a tank destroyer in place of a tank on mine.

 

[desphorin]

Yours would lose too many vehicles in combat and its armor values would come back to par or lower. Compared to just adding in a tank destroyer in place of a tank on mine.

Fair enough, forgot about TD as I normally dont use them. I like to put all 500 xp to upgrade tanks and wouldnt afford to spare more on the variants

 

[Vill4geidi0t]

Yours would lose too many vehicles in combat and its armor values would come back to par or lower. Compared to just adding in a tank destroyer in place of a tank on mine.

So your 10/10 and 13/7 template will not get pierced by the ai? Are the ai templates that bad? How do tank destroyers affect the template?

 

[desphorin]

So your 10/10 and 13/7 template will not get pierced by the ai? Are the ai templates that bad? How do tank destroyers affect the template?

Based on vanilla AI:

The best infantry division I ever see the AI building has around ~20 piercing, max 25.

For tank divisions, obviously will depend on the tech. Say 1939 germany for example, i think they can reach at best 40 piercing with the MT templates, but the AI is shit at managing stockpile, and as they cant produce enough tanks, their piercing will usually degrade to below 30 in battles. Later on they may research TD or HT, which you may need other things to counter them. But most of time they will have them too late on the field to have an impact.

If anyone wonders why space marines are op, this is why.

So there is really no point discussing templates for vanilla SP

 

[Vill4geidi0t]

Based on vanilla AI:

The best infantry division I ever see the AI building has around ~20 piercing, max 25.

For tank divisions, obviously will depend on the tech. Say 1939 germany for example, i think they can reach at best 40 piercing with the MT templates, but the AI is shit at managing stockpile, and as they cant produce enough tanks, their piercing will usually degrade to below 30 in battles. Later on they may research TD or HT, which you may need other things to counter them. But most of time they will have them too late on the field to have an impact.

If anyone wonders why space marines are op, this is why.

So there is really no point discussing templates for vanilla SP

Now where can I see the ai piercing value? Is it under hard attack during the battle?

 

[Fulmen]

Not quite.

Planning decay of 8% during player manual movement was added per HOI4v 1.5 defines

PLAYER_ORDER_PLANNING_DECAY = 0.08,                -- Amount of planning lost due to player manual order

Planning decay during player manual movement was revised to 3% per HOI4v 1.9 defines

PLAYER_ORDER_PLANNING_DECAY = 0.03,                -- Amount of planning lost due to player manual order

I'm aware. My point stands.

The idea is that you get benefits from 2 doctrines if you exped your tanks to someone using GBP. Obviously no one asks you as Germany to do GBP. But if you have too many tanks that you cant micro, sending them to some minors who use GBP may catch the opponent in surprise.

In theory it all works, though I havent seen enough to justify if it will definitely work.

This is one of the nichés that may justify one minor going GBP for precisely this purpose. I remember when DoD came out and servers experimented with an Axis Yugoslavia, some people had the Yugo player go GBP, and then before Barbarossa Germany gave him the entire eastern front as expeditionaries. Yugo gets some extra planning bonus from their leaders, and this was pre-GBP-nerf too. Haven't seen this obvious exploit been done on such a scale since though.

 

[desphorin]

Now where can I see the ai piercing value? Is it under hard attack during the battle?

Yea if you hover on each unit inside the battle screen, you can find both armour and piercing information

 

[SophieX]

I think tanks should be used to (mainly) beat enemy tanks.

I use my tanks to ( mainly ) encircle the enemy. In that closed circle enemy tanks are an easy prey even for "normal" troops

I think you mistyped something with your template? It's not any standard width.

No I didn't.
... and I don't believe that a "standard width" exists, because there is no one who can determine such "standards".

Many players "stare" only on the 80w frontline-width, which is a "fixed" factor. But there are still more variable factors, which have great effects, like supply, amount/cost calculation and playing-style.

If your conclusion is 20w or 40w, ok. I came to a different conclusion.

PS: I only talk about SP

 

[Spelaren]

I'd use mobile warfare for the speed cuz i love speed and tank artillery, but it makes my infantry rather anemic. I pretty much always play minors so i can't really afford anything beyond light tanks, CAS and cavalry and 20 width infantry with artillery. So i just use SF right right, or right left if i have enough planes.

 

[desphorin]

I use my tanks to ( mainly ) encircle the enemy. In that closed circle enemy tanks are an easy prey even for "normal" troops



No I didn't.
... and I don't believe that a "standard width" exists, because there is no one who can determine such "standards".

Many players "stare" only on the 80w frontline-width, which is a "fixed" factor. But there are still more variable factors, which have great effects, like supply, amount/cost calculation and playing-style.

If your conclusion is 20w or 40w, ok. I came to a different conclusion.

PS: I only talk about SP

Except the flaws of the battle mechanics kinda force you into it. You get massive penalty for going over width (every % over is 2% penalty on attack and defence). This is a postI find very useful: https://www.reddit.com/r/hoi4/comments/f6fvzj
Now if you are people who hate 40w because of how unrealistic and broken it is, fair enough. You will want to use ~26w to get the least penalties

 

[Meglok]

Source? You mean the tank stats? They are in game, or you can use https://taw.github.io/hoi4/ to experiment

Nice tool, someone should add a link to it in wiki.

Doctrines are usually decided by the nation you are playing and the strategy you are going to use.

Generally MW is good for an armor heavy nation and SF is better for everyone else. However, some nations are going to be better off going MA or GBP based upon their factory or strategic situation (hello China). Some nations have focuses that reward using the historical doctrine. As always, there is never one doctrine that is best for all nations.

 

[SophieX]

@desphorin

Thanks for posting this quiet helpful "reddit-statement".

Nevertheless I stick to my templates due to reasons I stated above.
In addition:
- I always micro all battles. And therefor it is not very important for me whether I can get a 15%, 25% or what-ever-penalty; I will always get my breakthrough without any "suffer" for the troops using that "frontline-hole"
- Many "explanations" about combat-width and "optimal"-templates are often concentrating only on the direct frontline-fight, which is quiet ok. But they don't say anything about "what comes after your breaktrough".

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

In SP your analysis is basically nailed on. In MP, I know a lot of countries will need MA for the extra manpower (and better bonuses for a defensive role). You can also use GBP because if you request expeditionary forces from countries building MW/SF troops, you essentially get benefits from both doctrines.

Yeah and also in MP you will usually be kicked is you
1. Change doctrines
2. Use paratroopers
3. Use strategic bombers
4; Send volunteers
5. Will not send volunteers
6. Send equipment
7. Use Space Marines
the list goes on, with more and more ridiculous house rules piling on top.

 

[Spelaren]

Yeah and also in MP you will usually be kicked is you
1. Change doctrines
2. Use paratroopers
3. Use strategic bombers
4; Send volunteers
5. Will not send volunteers
6. Send equipment
7. Use Space Marines
the list goes on, with more and more ridiculous house rules piling on top.

Sounds boring!