Question concerning combat

[Terantor]

I haven't played the game in a while (last game was with la resistance), but now got back into it with NSB.
I read the meta has moved away from 40W divisions and I understand this is because a 40W Division will not target one single enemy 20W Division and wreck it and then target the next one and so on, but instead will now split their firepower and attack 2 20W Divisions. So far, so good, seems like a good change.
But how is it the other way around? Let's say I have 1 40W Division and I attack 4 10W Divisions: My firepower will be split between all 4 enemy divisions. Which values does this affect? Soft Attack, Hard Attack, Breakthrough I guess? How about armor and piercing? Because if that isn't split, it would still make sense to build 40W, otherwise you will get pierced much easier. But in my recent germany vs. soviet game with a friend, he had very high width divisions and I wasn't able to defeat them. There can obviously be other reasons for this, but I have read about 20W, 21W, 27W Tank Divisions so much, so I started to wonder.
Any insights are greatly appreciated.

edit: Is there any simple explanation for the land combat calculations that is up to date? Not the wiki, that is written way to complicated for me right now to understand. I don't want the exact calculations with variables, just a basic explanation what each value does and how it factors into the calculation.

 

[Andrew0Red]

Only attacks spread between the different target divisions. There is no impact on hardness, armour or piercing.

If a division is attacked by multiple divisions, all the attack add up to overcome defense/breakthrough.


With the new mechanics, some of your firepower is spread out evenly accross the enemy divisions, while some is focussed on one target. More coordination means more focus, less coordination more equality. This would be the perfect place for a formula, but Paradox has refused to divulge it...

So the choice between narrow and wide divisions is still the same basic trade-offs, albeit one has been watered down a little.

(Let me know if you need the entire primer on armour/piercing, hardness and breakthrough/defense.)


But 20w? That is a question of varying terrain widths. If you're fighting in many different terrains, there is little difference between different combat widths, so choose based on other criteria. But if you know ahead of time which terrain(s) you will be fighting in, you can optimise.

If, say, you're on either end of Barbarossa, you will be fighting in forests and hills a lot, and maybe a bit of plains and urban too. (Be wary of fighting in Pripjetsk, of course, regardless of cw.) That is a lot of 84w (and wider), so a good choice is 42w for tank divisions and 21w for infantry, with the intent of stacking 2 tank or 4 inf or 1+2. Alternately, you could go for 28w for both tank and infantry, intending to stack 3, possibly with the odd 14w specialist.

 

[Zauberelefant]

Armour and piercing are averaged across a division, so size doesn't matter, but composition does.
Meaning if you split a 40w 12/8 armour division into 4x 3/2 divisions, attack, breakthrough and defense suffer, but piercing should remain the same.

 

[Corpse Fool]

This would be the perfect place for a formula, but Paradox has refused to divulge it...

They did though

 

[Terantor]

Only attacks spread between the different target divisions. There is no impact on hardness, armour or piercing.

If a division is attacked by multiple divisions, all the attack add up to overcome defense/breakthrough.


With the new mechanics, some of your firepower is spread out evenly accross the enemy divisions, while some is focussed on one target. More coordination means more focus, less coordination more equality. This would be the perfect place for a formula, but Paradox has refused to divulge it...

So the choice between narrow and wide divisions is still the same basic trade-offs, albeit one has been watered down a little.

(Let me know if you need the entire primer on armour/piercing, hardness and breakthrough/defense.)


But 20w? That is a question of varying terrain widths. If you're fighting in many different terrains, there is little difference between different combat widths, so choose based on other criteria. But if you know ahead of time which terrain(s) you will be fighting in, you can optimise.

If, say, you're on either end of Barbarossa, you will be fighting in forests and hills a lot, and maybe a bit of plains and urban too. (Be wary of fighting in Pripjetsk, of course, regardless of cw.) That is a lot of 84w (and wider), so a good choice is 42w for tank divisions and 21w for infantry, with the intent of stacking 2 tank or 4 inf or 1+2. Alternately, you could go for 28w for both tank and infantry, intending to stack 3, possibly with the odd 14w specialist.

First of all thanks for your answer!

Concerning Armor, Piercing etc.:
If armor is higher than piercing, you take less damage.
If armor is slightly lower than piercing, you still take less damage, but the reduction is not as much as before.
If your armor is way lower than piercing, you take more damage.
Hardness and Softness defines how much hard attacks or soft attacks you take. So a Division with high hardness will take little damage from infantry divisions, but take lot of damage from anti-tank divisions
Breakthrough and Defense are basically the same, but breakthrough is for offense, if it is higher, you will "ignore" more attacks.
Correct?
So stacking coordination is good because you can focus fire one division after another, is what I would imagine?

Last thing: Why would I use 42W then? Wouldn't it be better to use the smallest possible divisions then? Or at least the smallest ones with reasonable organisation? Would allow much more flexibility? Or is it not that good because of reinforce rate? Or what other reasons are there?

Armour and piercing are averaged across a division, so size doesn't matter, but composition does.
Meaning if you split a 40w 12/8 armour division into 4x 3/2 divisions, attack, breakthrough and defense suffer, but piercing should remain the same.

Ah well, I could have just checked that myself by removing some units from a template. Thank you anyhow, the changes are miniscule or non-existent (miniscule because of support companies I think).

 

[Zauberelefant]

Yeah, support companies do lower tank related stats mostly.

Bigger units profit from coordination, which allows to allocate a proportionally higher attack at the selected target. It's a hidden stat that gets increased by doctrines, and some tech like radio and support units like signals.
So, the later the timeline, the better bigger divisions get Vs smaller divisions

 

[Andrew0Red]

(Sub-units is both line battalions and support companies.)


Armour and piercing:
If enemy armour is higher than your piercing, you only do half as many attacks. Also, any attacks from them deal 40% more organisation damage, but not more strength damage.
There is no scaling or steps - it is all or nothing.

Armour is 30% of the highest sub-unit plus 70% of the average of the sub-units.

Piercing is 40% and 60%.


Hardness:
With 40% hardness, you suffer 40% of the hard attacks and 60% of the soft attacks.

Iirc, hardness is the average of line battalions, ignoring all support.

A "standard" armour division has a hardness of 40-60%, making it "medium" rather than hard. Thus, it suffers about half of the soft plus half of the hard attacks, and is *not* immune to infantry and artillery.

The only hard divisions are armour + mech. inf.. Which the AI [virtually?] never builds, FYI.


Breakthrough and defense:
Yes, breakthrough is used when you attack, defense when you defend.

Breakthrough and defense are the sum of the breakthrough and defense of the sub-units.

Every attack you suffer (after focus fire or lack thereof, hardness, armour, &c, summed up from all enemies) up to breakthrough/defense is 10% likely to harm you. Every attack after that is 40% likely.


Organisation:
The organisation of the division is the average of the organisation of the division. So the more non-infantry you have, the sooner you run.


HP:
Technically, HP is the sum of HP, but in practice it works as an average: The more non-infantry you have, the more equipment and men you lose when taking damage.


Combat width:
Since some of attacks will be focussed, having larger divisions helps defeat enemy divisions faster.

Larger divisions give a better return on percentage-support, like flame tanks, engineers, support, maintenance, medic, reconnoisance and signalling. Also allows your best generals and FMs to benefit more battalions.

Smaller divisions give a better return on absolute-value-support, like artillery, rocket artillery, AA, AT and to some extent armoured recon and flame tanks.

Technically, larger armour-divisions have a lower stat-reduction from support companies, but in practice it shouldn't matter.

 

[Corpse Fool]

If enemy armour is higher than your piercing, you only do half as many attacks.

It isnt attacks, its damage. There is a mechanical difference between the two, halving attacks would be stronger.

If armor is slightly lower than piercing, you still take less damage, but the reduction is not as much as before.

This gradiant armour bonus mechanic never actually made it into the game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The combination of splitting damage, tank designer, and extra support companies that can do damage all combine to make the 10w + support stacking + SF integrated more interesting than previously. You can generate more attack per width than previously, and while lack of breakthrough still matters, it's not punished quite as hard.

 

[Andrew0Red]

The combination of splitting damage, tank designer, and extra support companies that can do damage all combine to make the 10w + support stacking + SF integrated more interesting than previously.

To expand, support artillery goes from 60% to 110% damage with said doctrine. Yes, it actually works like this. Now do you see the power?

(Personally, I wouldn't go below 20w for combat divisions, but the other guys do have a point.)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

To expand, support artillery goes from 60% to 110% damage with said doctrine. Yes, it actually works like this. Now do you see the power?

(Personally, I wouldn't go below 20w for combat divisions, but the other guys do have a point.)

There's that, but you can now also design the tanks that go into your armored recon, for example. Then you can kick your 10w divisions with armored recon and flamethrower tanks backing that arty out the door of a plane if you want, because they're paratroopers.

 

[bitmode]

Where does the org factor come from?

That's just the percentage of org the enemy division has. I suspect even in @Arheo's original post he meant org factor and not absolute org