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Yeah, I was born in Russia, it doesn't mean I'm Russian. And having lived in the US long enough I learned to appreciate some American values, and not European finger-pointing.
ech...its soo tipical polish...fingerpoint and wisper quietly.....just dont forget that not only poliaks know polish language ...next time use english
anyway it's off the topic
IMO during cold war there was no really independent countries...you supported US or USSR..... there was no third way
US control wasn't that straight forward but still wery effective
Originally posted by Sebek
ech...its soo tipical polish...fingerpoint and wisper quietly.....just dont forget that not only poliaks know polish language ...next time use english
anyway it's off the topic
IMO during cold war there was no really independent countries...you supported US or USSR..... there was no third way
US control wasn't that straight forward but still wery effective
On the topic.
Jools wrote:
"He is Russian but lives in the USA", cause I wrote earlier a question whether Crook was in Eastern Europe.
My response was:
"He must left the country long ago or is joking on us. Anyway even if he is russian it doesn't mean that he was in any sattelite of former USSR". As you see is far from fingerpointing. My fault of using polish - everyone who fell confused of it can take my apologize.
Btw, I know that some people here know polish enough to understand what is written. If I would say something in secret I might use e-mail for example.
Are you joking or what? If you really are, you should know, that it is not funny at all. Ever heard of "Great hunger" in the Ukraine? When people had two choices: either try to escape to the russian-speaking part of Ukraine (which was illegal but sometimes possible) and pretend they're russians or to stay home and starve to death. If you'd have nothing to eat, you'd start speaking chinese in two days.
And do you really believe in democracy in the USSR? Do you really think, that one day some Ukrainians said "Hey, at last we are free so let's make Ukrainian SSR and have our own state" and Gensek, hearing this, said "Great idea, let's vote it out?"? Aren't you thinking of the USSR as if it was some euroasian form of the USA?
Cheers
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OK guys first point, if members of this board want to talk in their own language, that is acceptable as far as I know. As long as a moderator of this forum knows this language and is present, there shouldn't be any problem with it.
Unless this rule only applies to the OT forum .. I don't know I've been away, so ask the moderator of this forum, or the admin himself.
However guys, its best not to change languages half way through a thread, in that way you get the responses that you did. In either case, there's no point getting ethnically charged (thats you Sebek I don't appreciate your little Polish remark, mate), this is how nasty thread wars start and the moderators go around cutting peoples heads off. So cool it.
2nd point,
It's pretty bloody obvious that the Poles, the Russians, Lithuanians and Ukranians here aren't going to agree precisely (or even vaguely) on what is being said here given our recent and past history.
There are 1,000 other threads just like *this* one all over the internet (including usenet) discussing various little incidents that occured in eastern Europe over the course of the last however many years. I used to read quite a few of them, but sadly not anymore. Why? It degenerates into ethnic insults and recriminations.
I have my own views on the topic (christ I was born in Poland in 1979, so I do have my *own* opinion on what it is to be "independent". I could give you quite a few examples of various personal incidents that occured to me and my family whilst we were there - that is why we weren't there for very long..
Also, I recently come back from an overseas deployment with the Australian army, which has enlightened me further on this issue of "independence".
You'll argue yourself till you're blue in the face and it still won't resolve anything. Let the past rest, let people judge it themselves. However hard one tries, it won't change what they think -- if they're so passionate about it. Just let it REST.
Sapura
Unless this rule only applies to the OT forum .. I don't know I've been away, so ask the moderator of this forum, or the admin himself.
However guys, its best not to change languages half way through a thread, in that way you get the responses that you did. In either case, there's no point getting ethnically charged (thats you Sebek I don't appreciate your little Polish remark, mate), this is how nasty thread wars start and the moderators go around cutting peoples heads off. So cool it.
2nd point,
It's pretty bloody obvious that the Poles, the Russians, Lithuanians and Ukranians here aren't going to agree precisely (or even vaguely) on what is being said here given our recent and past history.
There are 1,000 other threads just like *this* one all over the internet (including usenet) discussing various little incidents that occured in eastern Europe over the course of the last however many years. I used to read quite a few of them, but sadly not anymore. Why? It degenerates into ethnic insults and recriminations.
I have my own views on the topic (christ I was born in Poland in 1979, so I do have my *own* opinion on what it is to be "independent". I could give you quite a few examples of various personal incidents that occured to me and my family whilst we were there - that is why we weren't there for very long..
Also, I recently come back from an overseas deployment with the Australian army, which has enlightened me further on this issue of "independence".
You'll argue yourself till you're blue in the face and it still won't resolve anything. Let the past rest, let people judge it themselves. However hard one tries, it won't change what they think -- if they're so passionate about it. Just let it REST.
Sapura
I think you should cool down a little bit, and not charge with emotions. Read the original post by Gen Winter. He was talking about Germans being sent to Siberia and replaced by Ukrainians, that happened in Sept of 1941. The hunger in Ukraine was in 1932, it's a good 9 years difference. Now, as to whether those particular Ukrainians (that replaced the Germans) were forced to learn Russian, I doubt that someone was standing there and holding a gun to their head.
Do I think that USSR was a democracy? No. Was Stalin a criminal? Absolutely. However, it's too easy to paint everything black, and not give credit where credit is due. I haven't heard too much Russian speech in Lvov in 1980s which makes me think noone forced those people to use Russian exclusively.
Past is just that - past, one has to learn from it, but not to use it as a justification for whatever actions one takes. If you, Poles, hate Russia for what happened 60 years ago, this is really sad.
Why not? Is there not a big push on in the States for slave reperations. Don't know about you Admiral, but when there were slaves in the US my great grandparents were serfs on a estate outside Kiev, so why do my taxes go to pay reperations for that particular institution.
In East Germany people had to move out of places where West Germans could prove that their homes were confiscated 50 years ago.
(apologies if I'm not making sense but I have a pretty nasty fever)
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes its two seperate incidents.
No1 was the famine, the facts aren't very clear but its likely that somewhere around 30% of the Ukrainian population was killed during the collectivisation efforts and the attempt to jump start industrialisation. This is pre-war coming to a climax somewhere around 1937-9 depending on which part of the country.
No2. is the Volga Germans. What my fiances family made clear when I was down there last week. Was that in 1942-1945 when the ethnic Germans were forcibly relocated to a colder place and the place was resettled by Ukrainians and kazakhs and what have you, it wasn't done as forced resettlement, given that they were moving to a relatively better place many went. However, most of the people there, inlcuding my fiance, although they are ethnically Ukrainian do not speak Ukrainian as it was not alllowed at schools, in the workplace etc.
Yes, it's sad. But both we, and Russians too, need time. We need it to give more credit, and trust them, you need it to stop beign defensive, and acknowledge you faults.
Of course, it will all be ruined if something bad happens again.
Oh, we have second Lithuanian on boardOriginally posted by Sebek
ech...its soo tipical polish...fingerpoint and wisper quietly.....just dont forget that not only poliaks know polish language ...next time use english
anyway it's off the topic
IMO during cold war there was no really independent countries...you supported US or USSR..... there was no third way
US control wasn't that straight forward but still wery effective
Personally I feel that Crook hasn't been in the US for too long. His English sentence structure, syntax, and the way he phrases his concepts is very Russian-stylistic Engish. Its not always a good indication since my neighbour, Webbrave, who lives in Moscow has excellent English.
sorry if I insulted someone with my last post..yesterday I had a bad day so I overeacted a bit
who's the other one?
It would depend at what age one leaves, and if one learned the language while in his/her native country. Believe me, I've been in US long enough.
I think you're mistaken, there are obviously people that are pushing for it, I'd be honestly surprised if the government yields to these ridiculous demands.
My faults?
We are defensive because you blame us for what happened 50-60 years ago. And even if Polish people were sent to Siberia (along with even more Russians), how's that related to a common soldier who was truly believing he was liberating Europe from faschism? There is too much generalization in many things that you guys say (e.g. Red Army is a bunch of rapists), I have yet to see a single good thing you ever said about Russia or USSR.
I personally apologize for whatever crimes every single Tajik, Uzbek, Kazakh, Ukrainian, Russian, Jew and any other representative of Judeo-Bolshevism ever committed in Poland. Feel better now?!
Turgenyev, Gogol, Pushkin (although he was a polonofobiac), Venichka Yerofeev, Lermontov, Vysotskiy, Dostoyevskiy... Need more?
I personally very much appreciate what russian culture gave the world. When I want to explain to someone from the west what my soul is, i usually quote Yerofeev or Turgenyev. But I'd have lots of difficulties in finding good thing in Soviet state.
Cheers
Legolas.Originally posted by Sebek
sorry if I insulted someone with my last post..yesterday I had a bad day so I overeacted a bit
who's the other one?