Question about USSR

[unmerged(502)]

Originally posted by Halibutt
When I want to explain to someone from the west what my soul is, i usually quote Yerofeev or Turgenyev.

wow, I wouldn't even put the two in the same sentence. May be I tend to underestimete Russian literature of the 60-70s, but I don't think it even comes close to Turgenev, Goncharov or Gogol. Just my opinion - world literature seems to be degenerating...

 

[pithorr]

Originally posted by Sebek
sorry if I insulted someone with my last post..yesterday I had a bad day so I overeacted a bit
who's the other one?

Well, we forgive you, as the newbies need some time to limit their crudeness here

BTW: You are 3rd Lithuanian in the EU forum: TheLotus is 2nd one I suppose...

 

[pithorr]

Originally posted by Halibutt
Turgenyev, Gogol, Pushkin (although he was a polonofobiac), Venichka Yerofeev, Lermontov, Vysotskiy, Dostoyevskiy... Need more?

Pushkin? I would rather say Dostoievskiy hated Poles a lot...

...But I'd have lots of difficulties in finding good thing in Soviet state.

I love my Zenith TTL. It has served me excellent since 15 years

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Crook


My faults?

We are defensive because you blame us for what happened 50-60 years ago. And even if Polish people were sent to Siberia (along with even more Russians), how's that related to a common soldier who was truly believing he was liberating Europe from faschism? There is too much generalization in many things that you guys say (e.g. Red Army is a bunch of rapists), I have yet to see a single good thing you ever said about Russia or USSR.

I personally apologize for whatever crimes every single Tajik, Uzbek, Kazakh, Ukrainian, Russian, Jew and any other representative of Judeo-Bolshevism ever committed in Poland. Feel better now?!

Not "my". "ours".

Anyway, of course we blame you. Who are we supposed to blame, after all. And saying "but" all the time isn't exactly making the impression Russians feel responsible for it.
No, please don't say this wasn't done only by Russians. I know that.
Don't say that Russians haven't done good things. They did, i know that.
And don't say i generalize, i know that Russians are different.
But all this doesn't make bad things less evil.


And what do you exactly mean by 'even if' (Polish people were sent to Siberia). if? They is no doubt they were sent.

 

[unmerged(502)]

Originally posted by pithorr

Pushkin? I would rather say Dostoievskiy hated Poles a lot...

Pushkin was rather pro-Russian than anti-Polish. Remeber that Polish rebellions had hardly any supporters in Russia proper, including the elite. You will have hard time finding someone who openly supported Polish independence. In 1863 Chernishewski was the only prominent figure to support the Polish rebellion (I think) and he was ostrachised by the society. In 1831 there was no one to stand for the Poles, including the most educated and most liberal Russians (and many Polish nobles living in Russia). Reasons for that could be discussed in a different thread.

 

[Halibutt]

Originally posted by pithorr
Pushkin? I would rather say Dostoievskiy hated Poles a lot...I love my Zenith TTL. It has served me excellent since 15 years

Well, one of my favourite quotations from Pushkin is from one of his letters (letter to mme. Hitrovo). It was something like that "War that is about to start [polish uprising of 1831] will be a extermination war, or at leas should be(...) Among all the Poles I care only about one of them: Mickiewicz.".

And TTL was really a great camera. But you should remember, that most of earlier SU cameras (Kiev, Smena and earlier Zenits) were made from pre-war german plans and in german-made factories send by the Red Army back home in 1945 and 1946...
Cheers

 

[pithorr]

He, he.
Zenith TTL was copied Practica TTL by Carl Zeiss indeed...
However about two times heavier...

 

[unmerged(469)]

Originally posted by General Winter
(apologies if I'm not making sense but I have a pretty nasty fever)

Glad to hear it wasn't just me being obtuse.

Would love to hear your point after the fever has broken.

Sap:

Hear, hear!

 

[unmerged(1302)]

Originally posted by Maur13


And what do you exactly mean by 'even if' (Polish people were sent to Siberia). if? They is no doubt they were sent.

I try to point to all of you that neither Latvia nor Poland were specifically targeted, the policy applied to the whole USSR. Noone is saying Polish people were not sent to Siberia, but I see a lot of generalization about Soviet soldiers in many posts, and that what I oppose to.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Crook


I try to point to all of you that neither Latvia nor Poland were specifically targeted, the policy applied to the whole USSR. Noone is saying Polish people were not sent to Siberia, but I see a lot of generalization about Soviet soldiers in many posts, and that what I oppose to.

Oh, i understand.

Well, ok. Hmmm. But you did understand what i meant in the rest of this post?

Actually, could you tell me what does it mean to you?Rephrase with your own words?

 

[Halibutt]

Originally posted by Crook
I try to point to all of you that neither Latvia nor Poland were specifically targeted, the policy applied to the whole USSR. Noone is saying Polish people were not sent to Siberia, but I see a lot of generalization about Soviet soldiers in many posts, and that what I oppose to.

But I hope you understand that noone was trying to rusificate Russia itself because it was pointless whereas the pressure towards russification in the Baltic States was quite high when compare it to the situation in - for instance - Kazakhstan.
Cheers

 

[unmerged(1302)]

Originally posted by Halibutt
But I hope you understand that noone was trying to rusificate Russia itself because it was pointless whereas the pressure towards russification in the Baltic States was quite high when compare it to the situation in - for instance - Kazakhstan.
Cheers

Again, let me ask you about that russification. What exactly do you mean? Russian was an official language of the USSR, whether you like it or not. What if it was English, or German, would that make a difference?

 

[Halibutt]

Originally posted by Crook
Again, let me ask you about that russification. What exactly do you mean? Russian was an official language of the USSR, whether you like it or not. What if it was English, or German, would that make a difference?

Not really. English was an official language of the British Empire and now barely anyone speaks scottish or welsh. Same situation.
Cheers

 

[Krasnaya Strela]

Originally posted by Admiral Yi

Glad to hear it wasn't just me being obtuse.

Would love to hear your point after the fever has broken.

Sap:

Hear, hear!

I'm back. Not sto percentov (100 %) but well enough. Admiral, I was responding to your arguement that people who live there now shouldn't shoulder reparations for what their parents have done in the past. What I was trying to point out that we often do ask society to correct problems made by thier ancestors, in the states it is the topic of reparations for black slaves and japanese internees, in Canada first nation lands. These points as well go back to injustices done over a hundred years ago where all the original participants are dead. In the case of the baltics the reach back is only 50 years and some of the people are indeed alive.
I think the legal expresssion is "fruit of the poisoned tree", if the ex-soviet colonists now are benefitting from lands and property recieved from the soviet government illegally then they have no right to that property since it wasn't the governments right to expropriate it in the first case. If they have a beef, it is not with the latvian government or people as they had no say in the matter, but with the soviet government. If you buy a stolen car and the original owners track the car down, you don't get to keep it. caveat emptor.

 

[Juu]

Guys, first, I've really enjoyed this discussion, but I will be posting less in the future, because my university exams are coming up and my work takes a toll on my free time as well.

If you have a question for me (e.g., anything related to the situation in Latvia), just drop me a private message, I will respond in forum.

Do the Baltics have bad relations with Russia because they treat their Russians badly, or are they treating their Russians badly because Russia threatens them?

Well, first of all, we do not treat our Russians badly.

Second, it is in the interests of Russia to keep a problem open in regards to the Baltic states. Sort of a "casus belli", "just in case".

As long as they keep it, they have more options... Just an attempt to kind-of keep us in the "sphere of influence".

Pointing out that there are many Russians living in the Baltic states serves that purpose as well, and what other better way to point it out than to say they are oppressed!?

If there wasn't this particular perceived problem, there would be another.

For example, with Ukraine, there's the oil transit debt problem, problem with Krimae and the Black sea ports (General Winter will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong).

Ditto for everywhere else where Russian interests lay, AFAIK.

In this particular case, how can Latvian language situation evolve if current policies persist? I am interested to know what you think.

Non-Latvians will learn Latvian to a level to stop complaining about having to learn Latvian and that the street signs are in Latvian.

Those non-Latvians that care enough about the citizenship and are not afraid of being called into the army will go apply for citizenship and get it. Hopefully there will be enough of these.

Russia will find enough inner political peace and stability that it will no longer be needing to use Orwell-esque methods of finding an external enemy.

End of story.

I do think that bilingualism enriches the society and not otherwise.

I fully concur. I feel truly enriched with knowing Russian (and English, and German). More languages is better.

Exactly why we have to encourage Russians to learn Latvian.

You misunderstood my previous note - will LATVIANS forget their language and heritage if there are two official languages in Latvia?

I am worried about that. I really am.

For example, in mixed marriages, more often than not the children are Russian-speaking only. Why? Because one of the parents only knew Russian, so the language spoken in family was Russian.


I hope I have answered your questions, webbrave, please let me know if you have more.

I will probably skip answers to Crook's (mostly) rethorical questions, seems to serve him no good anyway. If he asked any questions anyone else of you wanted to hear answered, please let me know.

 

[Krasnaya Strela]

Originally posted by Maur13

Oh, do you two know each other personally?

No, but we had a little tiff a while back over olympic golds, but then we decided to blame the perfidious french and let the matter rest.

 

[unmerged(469)]

Originally posted by General Winter
I'm back. Not sto percentov (100 %) but well enough. Admiral, I was responding to your arguement that people who live there now shouldn't shoulder reparations for what their parents have done in the past. What I was trying to point out that we often do ask society to correct problems made by thier ancestors, in the states it is the topic of reparations for black slaves and japanese internees, in Canada first nation lands.

But one very important qualifier is that reparations is/should be about voluntary atonement, not a "demand" in the sense of legally pressable. If the Balthic ethnic Russians feel some sense of blight on their honor and wish to clear it, hooray for them (actually, that would be a heartening development, wouldn't it?).

These points as well go back to injustices done over a hundred years ago where all the original participants are dead. In the case of the baltics the reach back is only 50 years and some of the people are indeed alive.
I think the legal expresssion is "fruit of the poisoned tree", if the ex-soviet colonists now are benefitting from lands and property recieved from the soviet government illegally then they have no right to that property since it wasn't the governments right to expropriate it in the first case. If they have a beef, it is not with the latvian government or people as they had no say in the matter, but with the soviet government. If you buy a stolen car and the original owners track the car down, you don't get to keep it. caveat emptor.

Fill me in. What is the situation in the Baltics? Are the Russians squatting on confiscated farmland? My impression was that they were concentrated in the cities, but this conjecture was based on absolutely nothing. Also strikes me that one hears NO mention of any land repatriation issues (in the press I read).

 

[Jools]

Originally posted by webbrave


Pushkin was rather pro-Russian than anti-Polish. Remeber that Polish rebellions had hardly any supporters in Russia proper, including the elite. You will have hard time finding someone who openly supported Polish independence. In 1863 Chernishewski was the only prominent figure to support the Polish rebellion (I think) and he was ostrachised by the society. In 1831 there was no one to stand for the Poles, including the most educated and most liberal Russians (and many Polish nobles living in Russia). Reasons for that could be discussed in a different thread.

You forgot the exiled anarcho socialist Hercen. Not very Russian name that is.

 

[unmerged(502)]

Originally posted by Admiral Yi

Fill me in. What is the situation in the Baltics? Are the Russians squatting on confiscated farmland? My impression was that they were concentrated in the cities, but this conjecture was based on absolutely nothing. Also strikes me that one hears NO mention of any land repatriation issues (in the press I read).

there were numerous cases when people (not only Russians, ethic Latvians as well) were kicked out of their appartments that used to belong to someone else before 1940.

 

[unmerged(502)]

Originally posted by Jools

You forgot the exiled anarcho socialist Hercen. Not very Russian name that is.

Yes, it was actually Herzen who supported the rebellion of 1863 (not sure of Chernshewski though, need to double chek on that) - and that was of the reasons that other Russian revolutionaries turned against him. I have yet to find someone who supported 1831 rebellion