Question about peace deals

[Duuk]

I like the idea of being able to demand a whole state. I hate the fact that you can't demand a single province.

I guess, under this system, that individual provinces don't make much sense really.

And it has already been shown to cause some historical idiocy by the inclusion of Macao and Hong Kong into a single state (and Okinawa and Taiwan...)

Bad systems are bad. Either subdivide the states to reflect cleaner historical accuracy or just allow the demanding of single provinces. There is no reason that "demand STATE X" can't co-exist with "and PROVINCE Y".

Basically I'm picturing an early war between the USA and the UK. USA wins and claims the upper portion of Maine. 30 years goes by and the UK can't re-annex the strip that was part of Canada but instead has to annex all of Maine. That's... dumb.

 

[Dunderdon]

The case of Tyrol seems to be the only case that comes to my mind where this does not make sense, so if you allow, dear developers, I'd like to ask how this issue was solved.

Historically, Southern Tyrol and Trentino were seceded to Italy in 1918/19. Within Austria, both Southern Tyrol and Trentino were part of Tyrol (although, you could argue, Trentino had slightly less right to be Tyrol than the rest - Northern, Eastern and Southern Tyrol).

So is Northern + Eastern Tyrol a state and Southern Tyrol + Trentino another state? This would make the historical outcome possible, but would not make sense (why would Southern Tyrol not be part of Tyrol, while Eastern Tyrol, originally belonging to the municipality of Görz is?), and would not allow the split along linguistic lines between Southern Tyrol and Trentino.

PS: Probably mentioned before, but the backside of creating historically plausible states is that those states' industrial capacity will be limited.

 

[Dunderdon]

Wait! I have an idea

Say, there was a "reclaim core provinces" war goal, that would allow annexion of only those provinces of a state where you have cores. That would make sense in all cases where individual provinces of a state were seceded historically.

 

[unmerged(149708)]

I don't want to sound too negative but I feel this is taking a step backwards - its in effect making states the new provinces except these provinces are really big. Instead of the increasing granularity with new versions this is going to decrease granularity.

 

[Petrarca]

Wait! I have an idea

Say, there was a "reclaim core provinces" war goal, that would allow annexion of only those provinces of a state where you have cores. That would make sense in all cases where individual provinces of a state were seceded historically.

If God and King love us enough (in ascending order).

 

[wilcoxchar]

I don't want to sound too negative but I feel this is taking a step backwards - its in effect making states the new provinces except these provinces are really big. Instead of the increasing granularity with new versions this is going to decrease granularity.

The demands of states instead of provinces in peace deals is related to the new war goals system that is being implemented in Vicky 2. It would be really tedious and stupid to have war goals for being able to demand every province, so doing it by state makes a lot more sense. The war goals system and organizing peace demands by state also fixes a lot of nonsensical AI behavior when making peace deals in Vicky 1 that resulted in random noncontiguous province being ceded. I like this method a lot better.

 

[unmerged(149708)]

The demands of states instead of provinces in peace deals is related to the new war goals system that is being implemented in Vicky 2. It would be really tedious and stupid to have war goals for being able to demand every province, so doing it by state makes a lot more sense. The war goals system and organizing peace demands by state also fixes a lot of nonsensical AI behavior when making peace deals in Vicky 1 that resulted in random noncontiguous province being ceded. I like this method a lot better.

I dont agree - coming up with a UI that makes selecting provinces easier is not very difficult. I.e. you can select an entire state and/or select from within that state. Problem solved. Or make the province selection screen a world map and then simply click on the provinces you want. Now that I think about this I dont know why it hasn't been done yet. Eu3 shows the results on a map but doesn't let you select them on the map.

As for AI behaviour - the way to solve this is with better AI, not by decreasing the granularity. If the underlying problem is not solved you would just get non-contiguous states instead of non-contiguous provinces. In any case I thought eu3 did this quite ok actually. Biggest problem was revolters creating crazy countries.

 

[King]

Now I'm more confused than before. Is it right that we now can't separate single regions from a state? As Austria if i attack Italy, i have to take whole italy although I just want Venice?

So its more like in HOI III ?

No you can take the state of Venice.

 

[King]

Ah ok, that helps assumed that i have crushed italy with an 100% victory, but i just want northern italy, I don't have to annex whole italy, do i ?

Because that would made everything much more complicated and it seems unlogical to me anyway. Maybe I'm completely wrong, I just wanna know, because I think i got many things wrong in here

No you don't you can take the region of Venice. If South Tirol is Italian you can settle for that.

 

[King]

I like the idea of being able to demand a whole state. I hate the fact that you can't demand a single province.

I guess, under this system, that individual provinces don't make much sense really.

And it has already been shown to cause some historical idiocy by the inclusion of Macao and Hong Kong into a single state (and Okinawa and Taiwan...)

Bad systems are bad. Either subdivide the states to reflect cleaner historical accuracy or just allow the demanding of single provinces. There is no reason that "demand STATE X" can't co-exist with "and PROVINCE Y".

Basically I'm picturing an early war between the USA and the UK. USA wins and claims the upper portion of Maine. 30 years goes by and the UK can't re-annex the strip that was part of Canada but instead has to annex all of Maine. That's... dumb.

You are an idiot. Macau is Portuguese from the 16th century, while Hong Kong starts the game as part of China. Thus the states we have set up allows you as the British player to demand and get exactly what they historically did ask for. So all in all the system does reflect cleaner historical accuracy, you are just too stupid to get it.

 

[Minodrin]

You are an idiot. Macau is Portuguese from the 16th century, while Hong Kong starts the game as part of China. Thus the states we have set up allows you as the British player to demand and get exactly what they historically did ask for. So all in all the system does reflect cleaner historical accuracy, you are just too stupid to get it.

Uh, right...

But this game isn't about how history worked out, but about how it could have worked out.

What if say Germany defeats China and wants a port, possibly Shanghai? One port, not a great smack of China. Or if France vassalized Siam, but wants one province for itself. Or Italy defeats the Ottomans, but wants (or only has the warscore to get) Rhodes, for example?

I cannot believe that it would be hard to code an option to ask for individual provinces in peace deals. Have one slide where you can select whole states, and another where you can select individual provinces.

The AI should only ask for individual provinces for certain reasons: taking provinces where their culture is a majority; islands; far away ports. In other words, as a rule you'd negociate over states, but in some special cases individual provinces could come into play.

Give us the best of both worlds, give us the chance to ask for both states and provinces.

 

[King]

Uh, right...

But this game isn't about how history worked out, but about how it could have worked out.

What if say Germany defeats China and wants a port, possibly Shanghai? One port, not a great smack of China. Or if France vassalized Siam, but wants one province for itself. Or Italy defeats the Ottomans, but wants (or only has the warscore to get) Rhodes, for example?

I cannot believe that it would be hard to code an option to ask for individual provinces in peace deals. Have one slide where you can select whole states, and another where you can select individual provinces.

The AI should only ask for individual provinces for certain reasons: taking provinces where their culture is a majority; islands; far away ports. In other words, as a rule you'd negociate over states, but in some special cases individual provinces could come into play.

Give us the best of both worlds, give us the chance to ask for both states and provinces.

No

 

[SA_Avenger]

I cannot believe that it would be hard to code an option to ask for individual provinces in peace deals. Have one slide where you can select whole states, and another where you can select individual provinces.

Probably because you don't code yourself .

Plus if (and it's not even an "if") any mechanism in the game works state wise you're invalidating it if you part a province away from that given state (not even mentionning game balance). The mechanism could only work in a game with dynamic state creation or something like that which is probably too much hassle for the benefit.

 

[Snaake]

And separate Taiwan and Okinawa maybe. Putting them in one state is culturally and historically incorrect.

The point people seem to be missing is that cultural etc. borders and such reasoning have been thrown out of the window in some cases as a design decision, in favour of enabling historical national borders and land transfers in peace deals. Which is what actually affects gameplay.

Single-province states would be possible, but would lower the value of the province, since it's industrial capacity would be seriously impaired. One reason why Hawaii is extremely unlikely to industrialize, the relative cost to do so in one-province states is just too much.

 

[unmerged(44030)]

I cannot believe that it would be hard to code an option to ask for individual provinces in peace deals. Have one slide where you can select whole states, and another where you can select individual provinces.

Programming the interface for selecting single provinces would be easy, but rewriting the way how the whole game works... That takes a while.

EDIT: Oh, SA_Avenger said this already.

 

[telesien]

As much as I'd like to have the option to f.e. make state a satelite and at the same time demand only port so I could more easily control it, I can't imagine AI using this function sensibly. So I support current decision, as long as states make sense.

Also reading all King's responses I do believe a lot attention was given to this aspect of the game. When states like Tirol are devided to South Tirol and North Tirol to reflect Italian south and German north, I say it will work well

 

[Aquilegia]

I guess that if you'd like to get just one province in a peace deal (for roleplaying purposes or a port or something like that) you could 'cheat' by adding the core of that province in the game file. Then claim that war goal, add some badboy (by 'cheating' if you wish because it isn't really a core) and remove the core again after the war.

Tirol would be easy and you wouldn't need to mod if this is the case: Austria has cores on the whole of Tirol (north and south), Italy only on the province of South-Tirol. If Italy wins a war they can take just South-Tirol (with the core-wargoal), thereby splitting the province. When Austria wins in a second war they can demand the state of Tirol (just South-Tirol in this case) or their core of South-Tirol, whatever is less costly, thereby uniting the state of Tirol again.

So if this is what takes it to get nice (and a bit more realistic) borders with ai-wars I don't mind.

 

[Andrelvis]

I think it's a bad design decision to not allow single provinces to be asked for. But I'll live with that, and hope they include such an option, or the possibility to mod in such an option, in a future patch or expansion.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

I think it's a bad design decision to not allow single provinces to be asked for. But I'll live with that, and hope they include such an option, or the possibility to mod in such an option, in a future patch or expansion.

TBH, I can imagine how it might seem a little dodgy to someone who hasn't played the game yet, but it's absolutely fine, it makes more sense than demanding individual provinces. You'll see on release.

 

[unmerged(71436)]

How does one claim a state on which one does not have a core?

Does one choose the war goal "cut down to size"? Can it be any state or does it need a land or sea connection to own states?