Question about Navarra

[Paxter Redwyne]

Why Navarra at the start of the game has no heir? King Juan II of Navarra had three adult children in 1444: son Carlos of Viana and two daughters Blanca and Leonor.
Was this done purposely for some reason or is this a oversight?

 

[gigau]

Possibly to favor the historical outcome of Navarra changing dynasty ?

When Juan II's wife died, crown should have gone to Carlos… but he kept it and fought Carlos and Blanca…. Leonor sided with her father and inherited a couple weeks before dying.

 

[Paxter Redwyne]

I am not sure, after all in the end Leonor's grandchildren inherited Navarra, so even if Juan II quarelled with Carlos and Blanca, his daughter Leonor still could be his heir or her son Gaston de Foix, who was already born in 1444.
And I don't see good reason to have Juan II heirless at the start of the game. Navarra is of course always conquered in the game, but I never seen them changing dynasty, except when they someone force Castile, Aragon or Spain to release it as independent country.

 

[makaramus]

having heir symbol of many diffrent thing in eu4
in case of navarra his children will not have strenght to hold kingdom.

 

[Paxter Redwyne]

To be honest Juan II also has no strength to hold kingdom. Navarra always gets conquered or vassalized in first few years of the game. There aren't even any events concerning fact that Juan II of Navarra is also heir to the Aragon.

 

[Zohtun]

To be honest Juan II also has no strength to hold kingdom. Navarra always gets conquered or vassalized in first few years of the game. There aren't even any events concerning fact that Juan II of Navarra is also heir to the Aragon.

That is actually a pretty powerful position to be in and really speaking Navarra should have an event to instant-integrate Aragon if that happens (probably by instant-integrate followed by a tag-switch to Aragon to prevent Navarra from being boring as all heck without the events of Aragon/Spain)

 

[tommassi]

That is actually a pretty powerful position to be in and really speaking Navarra should have an event to instant-integrate Aragon if that happens (probably by instant-integrate followed by a tag-switch to Aragon to prevent Navarra from being boring as all heck without the events of Aragon/Spain)

Not really. Juan II wasn't the king of Navarra: he was the consort. Blanca de Navarra was the queen, and when she died in 1441, Juan acted as king because of the weird will of Blanca de Navarra (which said that Carlos could not become king unless Juan gave his approval, which of course he didn't because why would he when he would be regent in that case). Carlos de Viana was the proper, legal heir of Navarra, and he would've also been heir of Aragon hadn't he died before his father. Carlos was of course the first potential husband of Isabel of Castilla, until Juan thwarted that because it would make him too powerful... but that's for another day.

The situation in Navarra and Aragon is just impossible to reflect in game with the current mechanics. There is no good solution to it, starting with the fact that the same "character" cannot be the heir to two different countries unless they are already in a PU.

 

[TheVikingWarrior]

Not really. Juan II wasn't the king of Navarra: he was the consort. Blanca de Navarra was the queen, and when she died in 1441, Juan acted as king because of the weird will of Blanca de Navarra (which said that Carlos could not become king unless Juan gave his approval, which of course he didn't because why would he when he would be regent in that case). Carlos de Viana was the proper, legal heir of Navarra, and he would've also been heir of Aragon hadn't he died before his father. Carlos was of course the first potential husband of Isabel of Castilla, until Juan thwarted that because it would make him too powerful... but that's for another day.

The situation in Navarra and Aragon is just impossible to reflect in game with the current mechanics. There is no good solution to it, starting with the fact that the same "character" cannot be the heir to two different countries unless they are already in a PU.

They did it with Brandenburg and Ansbach, they could do something with an event based on ruler flag and heir flag

 

[tommassi]

They did it with Brandenburg and Ansbach, they could do something with an event based on ruler flag and heir flag

Not even remotely similar situations. Juan II was regent, not king. Carlos de Viana was supposed to be king, but never managed to actually reign. Carlos de Viana was the heir to Navarra in 1444, but not to Aragon. And then of course there were civil wars both in Navarra and Catalonia (not all of the Crown of Aragon) between supporters of Juan and Carlos. This might have been doable in CK2. With the in game mechanics of EU4, just not doable. And I wouldn't think it'd be wise to alter mechanics supposed to model nation states to make this possible, because it was a really odd situation, and mostly lingering from Middle Ages style politics.

I get it: it won´t be perfect. And trust me, nobody hates it more than me: I'm from Aragon, married to a Navarran, and have lived in Navarra for a few years. But the chain of events needed to model this is just... gigantic. Probably stuff for a mod. But for Paradox it just makes no sense to invest the time and resources needed for an OPM that basically lasted for just 50 years of the game timeline.

If we´re going to get into these things, I would rather change the national ideas. Pretty fun to play, but not even remotely close to what Navarra was like.

 

[TheVikingWarrior]

Not even remotely similar situations. Juan II was regent, not king. Carlos de Viana was supposed to be king, but never managed to actually reign. Carlos de Viana was the heir to Navarra in 1444, but not to Aragon. And then of course there were civil wars both in Navarra and Catalonia (not all of the Crown of Aragon) between supporters of Juan and Carlos. This might have been doable in CK2. With the in game mechanics of EU4, just not doable. And I wouldn't think it'd be wise to alter mechanics supposed to model nation states to make this possible, because it was a really odd situation, and mostly lingering from Middle Ages style politics.

I get it: it won´t be perfect. And trust me, nobody hates it more than me: I'm from Aragon, married to a Navarran, and have lived in Navarra for a few years. But the chain of events needed to model this is just... gigantic. Probably stuff for a mod. But for Paradox it just makes no sense to invest the time and resources needed for an OPM that basically lasted for just 50 years of the game timeline.

If we´re going to get into these things, I would rather change the national ideas. Pretty fun to play, but not even remotely close to what Navarra was like.

I was just reading about it on Wikipedia, fascinating time period. While I agree that it's impossible to mirror the situation as it was in reality, you could have a few events that resemble what happened:
1) Have Juan II ruler of Navara at game start as he de-facto were
2) If he becomes king of Aragon, have an event pop-up for Aragon where you can choose to hold both crowns, forming a PU over Navara if not player played (as it happened de-facto historically), or leave the Navarrese crown to his son Carlo (he might not have yet died in this timeline)
3) If Juan chooses to take the PU, at his death it will automatically dissolve, placing a random de Trastamara noble on the Navarrese throne

If Navara doesn't get vassalized by Castile before, that is

 

[tommassi]

I was just reading about it on Wikipedia, fascinating time period. While I agree that it's impossible to mirror the situation as it was in reality, you could have a few events that resemble what happened:
1) Have Juan II ruler of Navara at game start as he de-facto were
2) If he becomes king of Aragon, have an event pop-up for Aragon where you can choose to hold both crowns, forming a PU over Navara if not player played (as it happened de-facto historically), or leave the Navarrese crown to his son Carlo (he might not have yet died in this timeline)
3) If Juan chooses to take the PU, at his death it will automatically dissolve, placing a random de Trastamara noble on the Navarrese throne

If Navara doesn't get vassalized by Castile before, that is

If Carlos had survived his father, the PU between Navarra and Aragon would've continued, and as I said before, he had his marriage with Isabel de Castilla pretty much agreed, until Juan got involved. No need to dissolve PU. It would never happen anyway, since Navarra never survives past 2 years and the very first move for a human player as Aragon is to force-vassalize it.