Question about Merchant Republic

[TheMeInTeam]

Why is everyone so obsessed with perfect RT? The benefits aren't very great and the opportunity costs are enormous. Having amazing rulers all game and the events that fire from low RT are mostly positive? Yes, please.

No joke. A short-term re-election spamming nation with religious ideas is a formidable thing indeed.

The most significant cost is the lack of RMs unless you're Dutch or noble...and even then you're very unlikely to get PUs (I've had 90 prestige with Tibet and RM with Ayuthaya, and "on monarch death" it would go to 9 prestige Dai Viet) so it winds up being mostly a diplo tool. Noble republics actually struggle to keep RT down, though . It's not really worth re-electing someone 50+, so if you get a few of those you can wind up gaining more RT than you want haha. Those old rulers make good generals however, because republics are blessed with no regency...and sometimes they even wind up with good pips .

 

[Tub]

No joke. A short-term re-election spamming nation with religious ideas is a formidable thing indeed.

The most significant cost is the lack of RMs unless you're Dutch or noble...and even then you're very unlikely to get PUs (I've had 90 prestige with Tibet and RM with Ayuthaya, and "on monarch death" it would go to 9 prestige Dai Viet) so it winds up being mostly a diplo tool. Noble republics actually struggle to keep RT down, though . It's not really worth re-electing someone 50+, so if you get a few of those you can wind up gaining more RT than you want haha. Those old rulers make good generals however, because republics are blessed with no regency...and sometimes they even wind up with good pips .

I don't get why so many people think that Noble Republics are superior. With their eight-year re-election, it takes forty years to elect somebody to 6/6/6 - so you're relying on the RNG keeping a monarch alive well past seventy, for you to have got a good return on your RT investment.

Ambrosian Republic, however, is too short. You'll tank your RT to quickly - four year is perfect for me, and to be honest, I haven't really felt not having Royal Marriages. I only ever use them as a diplomatic crutch with my vassals in Monarchy games, to keep them constantly at +75 opinion.

Now vassals are a different kettle of fish. A 10 RT hit for annexation? Discourages anything but the most beneficial vassal annexations.

low Republican Tradition rules -- if you stay below 50RT, there is an event that lets you trade +3 merchantilism for -2 RT. This way you can hit 100% mercantilism.

100% mercantilism means enormous trade power from buildings -- in my Hansa game, my 3 provinces in Antwerpen node w/ level 6 trade buildings at 100% merchantilism were giving more power than rest of France/Austria/etc provinces in Antwerpen node

Also, I never knew about this. Thanks

<rubs little Hands-a (get it) together in anticipation of much moneys>

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ambrosian Republic, however, is too short. You'll tank your RT to quickly - four year is perfect for me, and to be honest, I haven't really felt not having Royal Marriages. I only ever use them as a diplomatic crutch with my vassals in Monarchy games, to keep them constantly at +75 opinion.

Now vassals are a different kettle of fish. A 10 RT hit for annexation? Discourages anything but the most beneficial vassal annexations.

2 annexations per stabhit, even at a cost of like 180 ADM for stab, isn't bad at all. It's a lot less than you'd spend coring, and that's if you don't feed the vassal cores/claims back to make it big.

RM are good for getting allies you can't otherwise get, but otherwise noble republics are soso...though the morale booster is nice. Of course, unless you pick a European republic, there's also the simple reality that if you go republic you're going to be in noble republic for a while; similar to despotic monarchy it's the default option. I couldn't switch to merchant republic as Tibet...and I did try .

 

[Mauer]

low Republican Tradition rules -- if you stay below 50RT, there is an event that lets you trade +3 merchantilism for -2 RT. This way you can hit 100% mercantilism.

100% mercantilism means enormous trade power from buildings -- in my Hansa game, my 3 provinces in Antwerpen node w/ level 6 trade buildings at 100% merchantilism were giving more power than rest of France/Austria/etc provinces in Antwerpen node

I wish I had known this sooner.

How do you get an irish merchant republic ? sounds like a very fun game!

The easiest way for me was to start as Friesland, annex an Irish minor and then release-play as them. You'll be an Administrative Republic but you can change later, though personally I prefer the Admin one.

 

[King of Nords]

How do you get an irish merchant republic ? sounds like a very fun game!

Have diplomatic ideas, get counterrevolution, declare a war of revolution against a republic, beat them and then offer to change your government type in the peace deal. Unfortunately doesn't work if a monarchy becomes war leader, so you have to pick well. I did Novgorod by knocking over the Livonian Order both of whom were rump states, to avoid HRE nonsense, but Venice is also a possibility albeit a far more daunting one unless you've got your hands on Breton and Welsh lands already. I tested this in 1.2 I think when I first got the game (I'm Irish), no idea if it still works but I see no reason why it wouldn't. You could also take Urbino if it still exists, then do the revolutionary war on Firenze. This is the fastest way to get a republic, though as you can see, it requires some ahistorical gimmickry.

Safest way is to wait until the enlightenment, let revolutionary rebels win, then switch government types. Leaves you with about a century to play with though.

 

[King of Nords]

I wish I had known this sooner.

The easiest way for me was to start as Friesland, annex an Irish minor and then release-play as them. You'll be an Administrative Republic but you can change later, though personally I prefer the Admin one.

Haha, that never occurred to me. Probably because I didn't know that Friesland was a republic.

 

[Niels.p]

Safest way is to wait until the enlightenment, let revolutionary rebels win, then switch government types. Leaves you with about a century to play with though.

You can also rely on peasant rebels and let them break your country. Having lowing stab, high OE and high war exhaustion gives you more chances. Its less gamey because you are screwing up your own country in the proces. The best moment would be during the reformation, having OE, low stab and enacting the decision declaration of indulgence. A lot of provinces will flip religion and this spawn zealots. After zealots take a province then its possible that peasants will spawn in your colonies and the irish catholic provinces. Downside: you will convert too protestantism and peasant rebels only have 50% chance on converting you to a noble republic.

 

[Thetitan]

There seems to have been some kind of change to who gets the Republican idea group (Arguably the best idea group in the game, tied with exploration). I played a full England game, and since I had not taken aristocracy when the English Civil War even occur and I choose to get Cromwell as ruler. Next time I check my ideas, I have the republican idea group available.

But starting the game in 1466 as Sweden, you start as a Noble Republic, but you still have the Aristocratic idea group. This was not the case much earlier (think 1.2) but haven't tested it since.

Does anyone know what triggers the fact if you have the republican idea group or not? Since starting as a republic does not work as a solid trigger.

 

[Tub]

There seems to have been some kind of change to who gets the Republican idea group (Arguably the best idea group in the game, tied with exploration). I played a full England game, and since I had not taken aristocracy when the English Civil War even occur and I choose to get Cromwell as ruler. Next time I check my ideas, I have the republican idea group available.

But starting the game in 1466 as Sweden, you start as a Noble Republic, but you still have the Aristocratic idea group. This was not the case much earlier (think 1.2) but haven't tested it since.

Does anyone know what triggers the fact if you have the republican idea group or not? Since starting as a republic does not work as a solid trigger.

By 'Republican Idea Group', do you mean 'Plutocracy'? You can take that if you're any kind of republic other than Noble Republic. I think you might be able to take them as a theocracy as well... I could be wrong on that.

 

[clykke]

Paraodx nerfed Republics in EU IV. Almost every republic in this game sucks (Noble and Dutch Republic are ok..)

Noble republic is still the best form of government, and all other forms of republics are still better than monarchies.

 

[Thetitan]

By 'Republican Idea Group', do you mean 'Plutocracy'? You can take that if you're any kind of republic other than Noble Republic. I think you might be able to take them as a theocracy as well... I could be wrong on that.

Yea, meant Plutocracy. Ok, that was the change I was not aware of. Before even noble republics had Plutocracy. Witch made them rather powerful.

 

[Incompetent]

There seems to have been some kind of change to who gets the Republican idea group (Arguably the best idea group in the game, tied with exploration). I played a full England game, and since I had not taken aristocracy when the English Civil War even occur and I choose to get Cromwell as ruler. Next time I check my ideas, I have the republican idea group available.

But starting the game in 1466 as Sweden, you start as a Noble Republic, but you still have the Aristocratic idea group. This was not the case much earlier (think 1.2) but haven't tested it since.

Does anyone know what triggers the fact if you have the republican idea group or not? Since starting as a republic does not work as a solid trigger.

AFAIK the rules are as follows:

Noble Republic gets Aristocratic ideas.
All other Republics (including Dutch) get Plutocratic ideas.
Tribal Councils and Democracies get Plutocratic ideas.
Other government types (including Theocracies, Monarchies, Steppe Horde, Tribal Despotism...) get Aristocratic ideas.

Once you pick an idea group, you keep it regardless of changes of government. So it is possible for a country to pick both Aristocratic and Plutocratic ideas in the same game through changes in government.

 

[Tub]

Yea, meant Plutocracy. Ok, that was the change I was not aware of. Before even noble republics had Plutocracy. Witch made them rather powerful.

Other than Dutch Republic and the Dictatorship, Noble Republics are the worst. People cite the long re-election cycle as a good thing, but it disposes of the best feature of Republics - namely, the ability to get god-rulers. With Religious ideas for extra stability, that's a pretty good Monarch Point base.

 

[Novacat]

Why is everyone so obsessed with perfect RT? The benefits aren't very great and the opportunity costs are enormous. Having amazing rulers all game and the events that fire from low RT are mostly positive? Yes, please.

Stability costs.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Stability costs.

Those going up to 150-180 is not a big enough concern to outweigh re-elections, especially if you have ideas to reduce the cost.

A RT of 30-60 (60 just after taking a stab hit to boost it) is probably optimal if staying in republics, though with noble republics if you get a run of old leaders you can wind up going higher.

 

[Beagá]

It´s totally situational. Is obvious the stability costs CAN be crippling. Sometimes you want low revolt risk and high stab to convert provinces and don´t bleed with rebels or use harsh treatment. Keeping RT low is NOT a no brainer.

Even then the benefits of 6-3-3 rules usually outweight the lower RT, and the extra Money a Merchant republic can make with the extra Merchant can mean better advisors, thus countering the benefits of other governments.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It´s totally situational. Is obvious the stability costs CAN be crippling. Sometimes you want low revolt risk and high stab to convert provinces and don´t bleed with rebels or use harsh treatment. Keeping RT low is NOT a no brainer.

Except that it is, because events and annexations are going to drag you down anyway. You might as well re-elect when a few events are going to drop you sub-80 even if you annex nothing ever. Besides, a re-election is worth 24 ADM per year, which can be cycled back into stab if necessary.

You partially make up the stab cost via not losing your ruler anyway. Going from 1 to 3 stab is adding 1% missionary strength; there are only a few cities in the world that would require that extra 1% to convert, especially if you're Muslim or Christian and can get more than the 2% from decisions that Eastern religions get.

That said, re-election is directly quantifiable as a bad deal if your ruler dies and you don't get the extra points from it, so re-electing old rulers is a poor choice.

 

[Beagá]

Sigh... it´s situational. Period.

If you want to become protestant as Venice you will want lower stab costs and convert things as fast as possible.

Besides It´s hardly the apocalypse to never re-elect someone or do it sparingly and keep RT in the 90s range. Or have a ADM 4 instead of 5 guy. Also as I said extra Merchant from Merchant republic = difference between being able to pay skill 1 or 2 advisor.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sigh... it´s situational. Period.

If you want to become protestant as Venice you will want lower stab costs and convert things as fast as possible.

Besides It´s hardly the apocalypse to never re-elect someone or do it sparingly and keep RT in the 90s range. Or have a ADM 4 instead of 5 guy. Also as I said extra Merchant from Merchant republic = difference between being able to pay skill 1 or 2 advisor.

You are correct in that one should not *always* do anything. If they should, it's a bad mechanic that isn't balanced. I should instead say that it is generally better to re-elect than not, with some exceptions.

Be careful, however, when making points comparing two options. For example, wanting to boost stability to convert protesting quickly is a valid point in favor of keeping RT high sometimes. Having the extra merchant is not relevant; you have it regardless of whether your RT is high or low, and get money from it regardless.

If you are western, you can get away with below-average monarch points especially when staying small for a bit, so it's true that there are times where you'd deliberately avoid re-electing even with young leaders.