I have room and the money to expand in counties within my demesne. I'm assuming the first should be my capital. My question is should I build baronies or cities? If I build baronies, is it better to hold on to them and give away other counties to keep myself below the demesne limit, or give them away to a vassal? If I build cities, is it worth the wrong holding type penalty to hold onto them, or will I get more tax income by giving it to a mayor?
Question About Filling Out Empty Slots in Holdings
- Thread starter Jim41
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It's pretty much never worth holding cities over baronies as feudal as the wrong holding type malus makes them much worse. As to whether it's better to spread your demesne out over counties or focus on building baronies in your capital there is some debate. Personally I prefer to hold more counties in order to get the income from all the mayor vassals etc. Some do it the other way though.
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For troops: Build a castle and hold it yourself. Your personal castles in your capital county gets a 50% bonus to levy size (other counties in your capital get a 25% bonus) But since you can only hold so many castles yourself, fill the rest up with cities for massive tax from majors.
Or, as long as you're not catholic, temple vassals are a great mix of both. If you're catholic, the bishop may just give you nothing, because he likes the pope more.
Or, as long as you're not catholic, temple vassals are a great mix of both. If you're catholic, the bishop may just give you nothing, because he likes the pope more.
Yeah, I'm Catholic. I don't plan on building any bishoprics in any of my counties (other than the one required). Which is more valuable in the long run, money, or troops? It seems like troops would be, as after awhile money isn't as much of an issue once your realm is big enough.
I assume you're referring to the counties outside of my capital, correct?
I assume you're referring to the counties outside of my capital, correct?
Demesne limit counts the held castles themselves, regardless if said castle is the capital of a county. So an extra castle inside our capital county counts just as hard against the limit as counties that have 3 city vassals (and those give you way more money)
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Yeah, I know they count against the demesne, but wouldn't the troop bonus from baronies held in the capital be worth it? Or is the extra income better in your opinion?
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Both. So you build 4 castles in your capital county, and fill the other counties in your capital duchy with cities.
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If you know how to govern your vassals properly, go for cities as you will get all the necessary troops from the happy vassals and gold from taxes is always useful. If you have actual problems with vassals and need to oversee them, build castles, I guess.
Personally I raise my own levies rarely, so I choose cities anytime I can.
And there is no reason to personally own multiple holdings in one county. Doing so you reject an opportunity to have a whole another county with its own baron-tier vassals to oblige with taxes.
Personally I raise my own levies rarely, so I choose cities anytime I can.
And there is no reason to personally own multiple holdings in one county. Doing so you reject an opportunity to have a whole another county with its own baron-tier vassals to oblige with taxes.
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I know it's more money if you convert those 4 extra castles to counties, but it just feels so good to raise 6k levies from 1 county.
Go merchant republics. And happy vassals.
But yes, I don't play optimally. Never seen a reason to.
So I guess it comes down to personal preference. Both have valid points. Also remember that you can use your Steward to increase tax in your personal holdings, so if you have a bunch in 1 county, that means a good increase in tax.
But yes, I don't play optimally. Never seen a reason to.
So I guess it comes down to personal preference. Both have valid points. Also remember that you can use your Steward to increase tax in your personal holdings, so if you have a bunch in 1 county, that means a good increase in tax.
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Build all the cities, all the time. I know the conventional wisdom is that it's a bad investment, but I'm sitting at 30k with nothing to spend it on now. If my maxed out castles aren't adequate to conquer the world or subdue uppity vassals, I can buy all the top-ranked mercs on a full-time basis without hurting my pocket book.
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Now that I think about it more, I have a related question:
How much tax would an inland republic city (non merchant republic) give? Is there any reason to make a city county? I don't have experience playing merchant republics, so I might miss a few important details.
How much tax would an inland republic city (non merchant republic) give? Is there any reason to make a city county? I don't have experience playing merchant republics, so I might miss a few important details.
All good advice for me to think about, thanks everyone!
What about creating a barony to get rid of the prestige loss from unlanded sons?
What about creating a barony to get rid of the prestige loss from unlanded sons?
Once I've grown enough that I am at my demesne limit and have to start passing out county titles I stop caring about baronies. Having a demesne full of counties will be give you more troops, and money since you'll be benefiting from each counties barons, mayors and bishops. Sometimes I'll hold onto a single extra barony in my capital. Especially if it's a capital I plan on more or less controlling the entire game. The single extra barony just means you'll get that much more top notch, best in the realm soldiers. I find that one is usually enough, not needing a 2nd though that would be a lot of great troops, I still prefer the extra full county. This is also assuming you're upgrading your main castle and extra barony to be the best they can be.
I personally like making an inland republic. I find regular (coastal) duchy level republics to much of a hassal. They are a great income boost but are always up to no good, they're the first in line to ruin your birthday. Each new (coastal) republic ruler will hate you for being a different government type, and there are multiple families all bunched into that one duchy, all at each others throats AND yours. An inland republic just gets a new randomly created guy with no old baggage to bring along into his new position of power. So they're somewhat easier to handle when they go off the deep end, but will still have that different government malus. Not sure how much extra gold they give but it's like having a super mayor. Give one mayor a county and duchy and you'll make good money, just keep them happy. A two county duchy is probably the best bet, you don't want them having too much room to grow in power.
I personally like making an inland republic. I find regular (coastal) duchy level republics to much of a hassal. They are a great income boost but are always up to no good, they're the first in line to ruin your birthday. Each new (coastal) republic ruler will hate you for being a different government type, and there are multiple families all bunched into that one duchy, all at each others throats AND yours. An inland republic just gets a new randomly created guy with no old baggage to bring along into his new position of power. So they're somewhat easier to handle when they go off the deep end, but will still have that different government malus. Not sure how much extra gold they give but it's like having a super mayor. Give one mayor a county and duchy and you'll make good money, just keep them happy. A two county duchy is probably the best bet, you don't want them having too much room to grow in power.
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I'd strongly suggest a mix; for your capital county, try to fill and hold as many castles as you can in it. 50% troop count, and your marshal's raise levies and steward's raise taxes will impact every one of them if you build up their Castle Towns. Same with any Research needed to upgrade holdings.
Outside of that, I typically prefer filling my immediate duchy with castles as well and just building deep instead of wide, but I also play raiding cultures a lot so I can just reach out and nip more if I need it. Having more direct mayors is very nice on taxes though, and the 25% duchy bonus isn't as amazing as the county capital bonus. So you're probably best going deep on your capital itself, then spreading wide as is possible.
Outside of that, I typically prefer filling my immediate duchy with castles as well and just building deep instead of wide, but I also play raiding cultures a lot so I can just reach out and nip more if I need it. Having more direct mayors is very nice on taxes though, and the 25% duchy bonus isn't as amazing as the county capital bonus. So you're probably best going deep on your capital itself, then spreading wide as is possible.
I think that defensive pacts make stacking castles in the capital more valuable since you can't just chain wars on multiple weak neighbors using mercenaries and retinues anymore.
Build cities. You'll be able to hold more counties and gold = mercs/retinues. I like building heavy inf retinues and let my cities bulk out the army with light forces.
My preference is to aim for a capital duchy with just two counties which I fill up entirely with castles and then a 2nd duchy with 3-4 counties which I fill up with cities. This nets you a sizeable levy from you capital duchy and a lot of cash from your secondary duchy. If you end up with a poor stewardship ruler you can just give your heir the secondary duchy.
This does pretty much mean you always need to train for midas touched though.
This does pretty much mean you always need to train for midas touched though.
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If you are planning to blob massively then you want as many owned counties as you can get to reduce the vassal number. If you aren't planning to blob you'll maximize your power by going with all baronies, money is much easier to come by than men...