what did the de vemandois/carlingian acctually call themselves during the time period? did they openly boast about their heritage and such?
question about carlingian dynasty
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if my history is correct i believe they was the last of the karling dynasty and though it was a great ling they was a bastard line to so i believe for this they would of been shuned by most royals and seen as dirty as back then being born out of wedlock was a no no, and i believe herberts daughter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide,_Countess_of_Vermandois was the last and final karling then the title went to her and her sons after her brothers mental illness
I had to spend a while deciphering that ;P, your use of language is not very impressive and somewhat incorrect.
To sum it up for the rest of you, the de Vermandois cadet line were aware that they were the last agnatic descendants of Charlemagne, but they were never high in status and were distant by 1066. They were only the last Carolingiens by coincidence, not by merit. It would be more appropriate for them to be a cadet dynasty of the Karlings ingame (future dlc?), "de Vermandois", not purely Karlings. They weren't regarded as legitimate Karlings back then (line sprouted from Pepin, who had a bastard named Bernard), the idea of them being the "last" Karlings has only popped up in recent years.
You got remember children out weblock during The Emperor of "franks" time period where not shun, bastard line the de vemandois lords come from was title king of Italy/Lombard.
Half-wrong there. The Carolingiens didn't allow bastards to inherit for the greater part of their history, gavelkind would have caused further divisions and inhouse fighting. However the Carolingiens had greater fertility problems as time went on and failed to produce suitable heirs, so Bernard was allowed to inherit the kingdom. That's why the Karling of Vermandois line appeared
Actually I worked on the de Vermandois cadet line in school (University) in the 10th century. From what i have seen, the Vermandois were very ambitious at first and they were one of the great rivals of the Robertiens (Capet), Ottonians (Ludolfinger IG) and Main branch of Carolingians. In fact, they married any time they could in those branches to justify they pretensions, even if it meant... well, marrying between themselves to keep the line "pure". However the Robertiens did everything they could during that time to weaken them and from being one of the greatest Dukes of Francia, they were indeed reduced to the one county of Vermandois before the line extinguished like Lordrac said from lack of fertility.
So in fact, hte Vermandois are genuinely Karling because they built the family with that in mind
So in fact, hte Vermandois are genuinely Karling because they built the family with that in mind
thanks for all the answers, i was just wondering because i got a game where heaps of awsome things happened, all the capetians die out except for one, aquatain and toulouse go independant, england has anjour normandy and flanders, and i am playing as the last carling and soon should be able to swallow the remnant state of france...was just wondering if it was historically plausable because it could make a good aar xD
Interesting post, I had just played a game as the count of Vermandois (obviously to restore charlemagne's empire) and was also wondering if they were "aware" of their line so to speak. Only adds credibility if it comes from Poitiers' history university.Actually I worked on the de Vermandois cadet line in school (University) in the 10th century. From what i have seen, the Vermandois were very ambitious at first and they were one of the great rivals of the Robertiens (Capet), Ottonians (Ludolfinger IG) and Main branch of Carolingians. In fact, they married any time they could in those branches to justify they pretensions, even if it meant... well, marrying between themselves to keep the line "pure". However the Robertiens did everything they could during that time to weaken them and from being one of the greatest Dukes of Francia, they were indeed reduced to the one county of Vermandois before the line extinguished like Lordrac said from lack of fertility.
So in fact, hte Vermandois are genuinely Karling because they built the family with that in mind
They would have been acutely aware of their lineage, as was any noble house worthy of the name of that period (or later, for that matter).
This is almost inconceivable nowadays in this age of rationalism and individualism where most people don't know who their (great-)great-grandparents were a hundred years ago, but back then you were not principally regarded as an individual with an own sense of free will, you were first and foremost the result of the joined bloodlines of your ancestors.
Who you were was determined by who your ancestors had been and by your current position in life. This, in turn, affected your options. Your own actions (flowing from free will) were of secondary importance, because these would also have been influenced by considerations of your position, your lineage and your social environment.
That sounds like circular reasoning, but it's not. It's a dialectic process.