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darkfireslide

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I was wondering something. During the invasion of Normandy, weren't most of the Axis divisions veterans in at least some capacity? I feel like there is a discrepancy in the game between the number of experienced Allied divisions and experienced Axis divisions, but maybe that's just a wrong perception. At any rate, did the Allies have more experience than I'm giving them credit for, and the Axis forces less so? Or is veterancy done mostly for game balance?
 

von Steinberg

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The Western Allies had been training for quite some time specifically for the creation of a western front against Germany. Meanwhile, the war on the eastern front wasn't going so well for Germany (at that point, the Red Army was in full charge mode, with the manpower and equipment to work with as they pleased, and with talented generals grasping the concept of combined arms instead of relying on WWI doctrine), which meant all essential personnel as well as most high-quality equipment was bound in the east.

France at this point was used extensively as a "first assignment" as well as a rest and recreation space for the Wehrmacht. Problems there were minimal (mostly minor resistance operations, that could be dealt with by quickly moving troops around), so it was ideal to place conscripts fresh out of basic training there, to get a feel for staying alert, without immediately throwing them into the midst of combat. It was also ideal to move battered units there, to fill them up with fresh soldiers, and allow for new (or refitted) equipment to be distributed. The units that were more permanently stationed in France were pure reserve units - soldiers that were actually too old for front-line duty (there were only so many desk-jobs to go around, even in a bureaucracy like Germany).

That meant, when the Allies were attacking, they encountered a true hodgepodge of units that were in different states of regrouping, redistribution, and re-equipping, with most of the true front line being made up by under-equipped, badly trained second- or third-line units. Or as the Germans would have expressed it, tja happened.

P.S.: Of course, there are a lot of inconsistencies there, with especially the French and Polish divisions in the game receiving their vehicles only weeks, or even just days before the invasion, with very little time to actually train with them. That makes stuff like the French Greyhound and Sherman crews being top notch quite ridiculous...
 
Last edited:

Karlburg

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The Germans had a variety of divisions in Normandy. Most of the experience was concentrated in the Panzer-Divisions, as the army had been stripping the infantry divisions to strengthen them. Not all the Panzer-Divisions had a lot of combat experience, but that's where the experienced troops were, aside from some units like the 3.FJ. After Normandy, 3.FJ had been wrecked and was reconstituted, probably closer to a Luftwaffe Field Division in quality.

I do think this game is fairly generous with the amount of vet given out in general, but since there's only three levels, it's tough to make everything granular enough to adequately differentiate divisions.

I do think it's kinda weird that the game doesn't really show the differences in organizations that well, other than Allied infantry divisions having better armor than Axis infantry divisions.
 

Ddraig5400

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A lot of the veterancy in the game is based on not only the performance of divisions in previous campaigns, but also their performance in the Normandy campaign. A lot of the veterancy both Axis and Allied divisions have is based on their performance in Normandy, since most hadn't actually seen any combat (although many of the inexperienced German divisions had veteran officer corps to bolster their strength, meanwhile most allied divisions had spent the last two or three years training )
 

Hidden Gunman

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Veterancy is a bit of a rubbery concept. For units like 12SS and 10SS, the cadres that the units were built around were 1SS Panzer; I'm not sure with 9SS, but both 9SS and 10SS had recently fought their first actions in the East. 12SS was not veteran, per se, although the cadre was. Lehr was similar, due to not all training staff actually having combat experience, with many who did carrying wounds that rendered them more a liability in actual combat. Many of the 'also there' units, primarily infantry, had veterans among them...although these need to be viewed with an open mind, as having burnt out or second rate fitness troops may not amount to 'veteran' status. That said though, experience with doctrine that works, which the germans had, far outweighed the limited training, and incorrect lessons, that the allies had. The US was somewhat better placed than the Brits and Canadians in this regard, but not by much. None of the armoured units in the UK, including US troops, conducted large scale training or exercises...in fact, the Brit and Canadian armour (which did the vast majority of its' training in UK), did not exercise above squadron level in any constructive manner...they were limited to road movement only, outside of the main training areas, and lack of availability for those training areas limited large formation exercises. What that basically meant was that the benefits of the attrition war which Germany was losing, and the lack of fuel/ammo for german training purposes, was wasted...because the Brits/Canadians and to a lesser extent the US, also failed to provide sufficient adequate training to achieve any baseline advantage over the germans. The major lesson that should have been learnt from both the western desert campaigns, and the poor training regime in the UK, was that incorrect training is worse than no training at all...it gives generals an overly inflated view of formation and soldier capabilities. As far as the Brits and Canadians were concerned, a lot of troops died because of the western desert and Montgomery factors (bad lessons learnt and bad generalship).

Bear in mind also that 'training for D Day' was just that...it was training to make one particular day successful. There was no constructive detailed planning on just what was to be done afterwards, nor were troops trained in doctrinal requirements (by this, the 'plan' consisted of lines on maps of where the troops were supposed to be by certain dates, and timelines of when towns/etc were supposed to be held by the allies, but no outline concept or detailed plans for actually getting there).

In game terms though, think of it as thematic....germans experienced, allies not.
 

Karlburg

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Veterancy is a bit of a rubbery concept. For units like 12SS and 10SS, the cadres that the units were built around were 1SS Panzer; I'm not sure with 9SS, but both 9SS and 10SS had recently fought their first actions in the East. 12SS was not veteran, per se, although the cadre was. Lehr was similar, due to not all training staff actually having combat experience, with many who did carrying wounds that rendered them more a liability in actual combat. Many of the 'also there' units, primarily infantry, had veterans among them...although these need to be viewed with an open mind, as having burnt out or second rate fitness troops may not amount to 'veteran' status. That said though, experience with doctrine that works, which the germans had, far outweighed the limited training, and incorrect lessons, that the allies had. The US was somewhat better placed than the Brits and Canadians in this regard, but not by much. None of the armoured units in the UK, including US troops, conducted large scale training or exercises...in fact, the Brit and Canadian armour (which did the vast majority of its' training in UK), did not exercise above squadron level in any constructive manner...they were limited to road movement only, outside of the main training areas, and lack of availability for those training areas limited large formation exercises. What that basically meant was that the benefits of the attrition war which Germany was losing, and the lack of fuel/ammo for german training purposes, was wasted...because the Brits/Canadians and to a lesser extent the US, also failed to provide sufficient adequate training to achieve any baseline advantage over the germans. The major lesson that should have been learnt from both the western desert campaigns, and the poor training regime in the UK, was that incorrect training is worse than no training at all...it gives generals an overly inflated view of formation and soldier capabilities. As far as the Brits and Canadians were concerned, a lot of troops died because of the western desert and Montgomery factors (bad lessons learnt and bad generalship).

Bear in mind also that 'training for D Day' was just that...it was training to make one particular day successful. There was no constructive detailed planning on just what was to be done afterwards, nor were troops trained in doctrinal requirements (by this, the 'plan' consisted of lines on maps of where the troops were supposed to be by certain dates, and timelines of when towns/etc were supposed to be held by the allies, but no outline concept or detailed plans for actually getting there).

In game terms though, think of it as thematic....germans experienced, allies not.

I kinda think if you reduced veterancy across the board like this, you'd have to rework certain divisions to make them actually appealing to play. I also think that some things are just a casualty of having only three possible levels of veterancy for a particular card.
 

Karlburg

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It's not only allied divisions that get veterancy despite not having been in combat..

I'm not sure why, for example, anyone would ever play third armored if it didn't have any vet. Not that they play it much anyway.